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X002548
Not Just a Number
15586 Posts |
 Posted - 2003-03-10 : 14:47:23
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| I'd like to know if anyone has any comments, wittesims, background, or just general knowledge about the state of out-sourcing. The current tread here is to move jobs to Ireland, Bangalore, ect. It is said that IT Jobs can be done at a cheaper cost (in our case the US). However it is my expirence that if is being done for 1/2, but take 4 times a long, you get:Select @Cost = (@Rate/2)*4So I wonder where the savings are. Additionally, I find it extremely important to have close ties to my users. It's difficult as is, to discern what they really want, with out throughing in time zone (as well as other) differences.Just curious what everyone thinks, and what the trends are and where they're going.Brett8-) |
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Page47
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
2878 Posts |
Posted - 2003-03-10 : 14:55:08
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| Brett, I don't suspect you will find any American dbas who are glad to see work go across the borders ... and you are likely to find few non-American's complaining ...I've worked with good and bad software developers both locally and from around the world. I have had good and bad experiences with both.Jay White{0} |
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nr
SQLTeam MVY
12543 Posts |
Posted - 2003-03-10 : 16:38:12
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| Don't know about the US but I think the quality of personell in the UK is very low now.Suspect this is a hang over from staff shortages when companies would take people with next to no experience coupled with products being so easy to get running that novices can disguise lack of competence in the early stages of projects. Also with the recesion people are trying to hang on to jobs and are more comfortable with people who are supportive rather than those that highlight problems.Given that the last few systems I have worked on were architected/designed/implemented by people who had no idea what they were doing there might be a case for outsourcing.These systems all had to have major rewrites to get through system test.You can see by some of the questions asked on this forum that some systems are in a lot of trouble.Working close to the users should be a great advantage but if a lot of staff are trying to cover up a lack of knowledge then there isn't going to be meaningful interaction.==========================================Cursors are useful if you don't know sql.DTS can be used in a similar way.Beer is not cold and it isn't fizzy. |
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robvolk
Most Valuable Yak
15732 Posts |
Posted - 2003-03-10 : 16:55:53
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| The biggest problem I've experienced with outsourcing is not so much the technical ability of the outsourcers (which can often be really bad too), but with their understanding of the process and PEOPLE who will use their product. The kind of thing that could easily be solved if the PROGRAMMERS were forced to use their apps, 8 hours a day, for only a week or two. If they did the jobs of the people they're programming for, you'd see a huge improvement in development time and quality of app. This is supposed to be one of the problems that extreme programming solves, but XP is not something that many outsourcers would practice (certainly not advertise that they practice) Mostly though there's too much focus on meeting deadlines and milestones and matching the specs and staying within budget, and after all of that is done (and usually missed anyway) they end up delivering a product that is a complete dog. Yeah, this can happen in house too, but you have the advantage of firing, beating, and otherwise abusing the schmucks who did it.Edited by - robvolk on 03/10/2003 16:56:45 |
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Wanderer
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
1168 Posts |
Posted - 2003-03-11 : 07:39:03
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Just a point - blame where appropriate. If quote:
Mostly though there's too much focus on meeting deadlines and milestones and matching the specs and staying within budget, and after all of that is done (and usually missed anyway) they end up delivering a product that is a complete dog
If they "deliver to spec" and deliver a system that "is a complete dog" , someone needs to go and visit's the guys writing the spec's ... with a hammer ....Maybe it's just me, but I see far too much slap-dash spec (and hi-level design/architecure) that get's thrown "down the hopper" to developement and testing to fix by trial and error, and going back again and again to get them to realize what it is they do, how, and why? If they don't know that, how the hell do they think they can spec a system for it ?I think that one of the things that get high-lighted by giving the work to people outside the company, who give you what you ask for, is that they can't be arm-twisted into saying that they were wrong, and redo work that was poorly spec'd. GIGO applies (garbage in, garbage out) imhoYes I know specing to the Nth degree means you end up delivering a system a year after it was needed, but delivering an 80% spec usually mean that the 95 % spec looks different, and the 100% spec is usually only delivered near the end of a project, and can have very little in common with the 80%. Do the work up front, reap the rewards in reduced re-work, imho.*sigh* But maybe I just have a sensitive spot for this. I saw a 56 table database get cobbled together , table by table, column by column, for a systems that was spec'd TO NOT NEED A DATABASE.*#&#* *#&#* *#&#* *#&#* Chaos, Disorder and Panic ... my work is done here! |
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X002548
Not Just a Number
15586 Posts |
Posted - 2003-03-11 : 10:01:35
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| <THUD>Wanderer,I guess you drive one of my points in regards to outsourcing. You would have to create specs that are 100% to the letter, don't color outside the lines, Drive on the right except to pass (Applies US), Sit up straight, Don't eat your desert before dinner, ad infinitum....And in that Case it's almost akin to have coded it yourself. The Business Users are not going to take a Business Requirements doc, and deliver a technical one...I know I just went through (see my posts about More Trees & Hierarchy). The outsourcing group was going to use a sledge hammer to get this done.I think that it is our job to interpret, guide and otherwise be more value added than just SQL Gurus. Anyone can be a Guru (MOO) (and a lot of them build rocket ships to go to the corner store).I'm just thinking that as time goes on, deadlines get missed, the blaming cycle starts, that just as the tide is going out now, the tide must certainly come back in. I just wonder how many sacrificial lambs will be led to the slaughter before it all turns around.</THUD>....just me falling off my soapboxBrett8-)Edited by - x002548 on 03/11/2003 10:25:07 |
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JustinBigelow
SQL Gigolo
1157 Posts |
Posted - 2003-03-11 : 22:00:01
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quote:
Just a point - blame where appropriate. If quote:
Mostly though there's too much focus on meeting deadlines and milestones and matching the specs and staying within budget, and after all of that is done (and usually missed anyway) they end up delivering a product that is a complete dog
If they "deliver to spec" and deliver a system that "is a complete dog" , someone needs to go and visit's the guys writing the spec's ... with a hammer ....Maybe it's just me, but I see far too much slap-dash spec (and hi-level design/architecure) that get's thrown "down the hopper" to developement and testing to fix by trial and error, and going back again and again to get them to realize what it is they do, how, and why? If they don't know that, how the hell do they think they can spec a system for it ?I think that one of the things that get high-lighted by giving the work to people outside the company, who give you what you ask for, is that they can't be arm-twisted into saying that they were wrong, and redo work that was poorly spec'd. GIGO applies (garbage in, garbage out) imhoYes I know specing to the Nth degree means you end up delivering a system a year after it was needed, but delivering an 80% spec usually mean that the 95 % spec looks different, and the 100% spec is usually only delivered near the end of a project, and can have very little in common with the 80%. Do the work up front, reap the rewards in reduced re-work, imho.*sigh* But maybe I just have a sensitive spot for this. I saw a 56 table database get cobbled together , table by table, column by column, for a systems that was spec'd TO NOT NEED A DATABASE.
Starting Spec/Functional Requirements (started Nov '01) - Stabilize order entry Access database (determine cause of constant corruption), implement data integrity/domain validation checks, and speed it up. All parties involved believed this would take a few days at most.End Product (March '03 and still adding...) - SQL Server/ASP.NET web app (loosely) integrated with ecommerce site. Soon to allow access by customers to work history reports and electronic payment for services (as opposed to sending in paper checks or running P cards thru terminals). Results :"Stabilize order entry Access database" - check, moved to real RDMS"implement data integrity/domain validation checks" - check, sprocs only"speed it up" - check, indexes, web front end eliminates over head of VPN access to Access"take a few days at most" - BWAHAHAHAHAHA... scope creep thy name is Justin3 out of 4 aint bad!Expect 0x80040106Edited by - justinbigelow on 03/11/2003 22:00:58 |
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AndrewMurphy
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
2916 Posts |
Posted - 2003-03-14 : 08:10:47
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| re the perceived trend to move to Ireland......without doing my own country down, we're not as cheap as is generally perceived. With an economy that has doubled in size in 5-6 years and unemployment dropped from 12% - 4%, when people got money in their pockets they started spending it and the theory of supply and demand really kicked into play....and boy does it work.With a poor national transport infastructure, relatively dear housing and inflation running @ twice the international averages, that exodus from the US has started to reverse. One of the few advantages we have left of being 'those nice irish guys' is also disappearing fast - money changes everything, including the ability to smile for free.And as for the quality of work....the rush for bodies doing jobs glossed over the greater need for those bodies to be 'properly educated' in the basics (and intermediate levels) of this new profession. Quality can be found, but like all things in life these days....there's a hell of a lot of dross out there hiding the good stuff. |
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X002548
Not Just a Number
15586 Posts |
Posted - 2003-03-14 : 08:50:47
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| Andrew,Do live/work near Donegal or Letter Kenny.Brett8-) |
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AndrewMurphy
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
2916 Posts |
Posted - 2003-03-14 : 09:56:48
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| Currently living in Dublin....but am living with a Donegal woman (from Dungloe)....am actually going that direction tomorrow...for St.Patrick's Day.oh yea....Happy St.Patrick's Day everybody! |
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X002548
Not Just a Number
15586 Posts |
Posted - 2003-03-14 : 10:01:09
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| Count me in...going to our local parade on Sunday (going to 60 degrees in Jersey), and I'll be having the whole crowd over for an Irish dinner and Guiness, Harp and Jamesons (w/ or w/out the coffee)Any good recipes out there?Brett8-) |
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Merkin
Funky Drop Bear Fearing SQL Dude!
4970 Posts |
Posted - 2003-03-14 : 10:05:13
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quote:
Guiness, Harp and Jamesons (w/ or w/out the coffee)Any good recipes out there?
No, that pretty much covers it  Damian |
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JimL
SQL Slinging Yak Ranger
1537 Posts |
Posted - 2003-03-14 : 14:24:47
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My own experiences with outside developers have forced me to go back into the mix myself. The last time I developed apps I was doing it on a mainframe in FORTRAN……….. (OK no old man jokes) I am not kidding, the Canned packages won’t let you half of what your users want and when you hire someone to create an app you ether spend as much or more time explaining why, what they did will not work in the real world with real users than it would to do it yourself.We currently have a canned Time-clock program that is so limited that if I had the time I would Pitch it and start from scratch. And this sucker cost us 7+ change and the powers that be did not even get the source code. |
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Wanderer
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
1168 Posts |
Posted - 2003-03-17 : 08:06:25
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Justin, I feel your pain!---X002548 - Well ... quote:
"You would have to create specs that are 100% to the letter, don't color outside the lines, Drive on the right except to pass (Applies US), Sit up straight, Don't eat your desert before dinner, ad infinitum.... "
Let's face, a 100% spec= code. There's no getting round that. Analysis-paralysis generally occurs after 95 % "perfect" spec's .My point is that "planned" re-work from incomplete spec's is going to have a far higher impact when someone is not intimate with business, and doesn't make some decision based on the fact that they "know" what was meant, as opposed to simply "do per spec".I myself sit in-house, but I feel this same pain of bad spec's, even though I do know the business. when you're in a large organization, you just don't know all of the business, and you can't filter spec's to make them what the user want's, as opposed to what they ask for. This is the same position I see SOME outsource coding hending up in.Make no mistakes - BAD work should be punished. Outsourced code that must be re-done/heavily modified to CORRECT ERROR's and FIX PERFORMANCE is definitely a point aginst outsourcing, IF IT OCCURS. But again, that happens in a big organization where you have 100's of IT people, anyway. Interestingly enough, a mate of mine is doing programming in the XP methodology (eXtreme Programming, that is), and as he describes it to me, the first thing you do is exhaustively create your test's for code, and then step by step and code to pass each test. So, if we could get a "spec" from the analysts in this mode, then it would be far more complete. BUT, and this is a BIG BUT, that is a hellova change to the way they and we work. I'd settle for design that do the standard logical modelling, proper transactional analysis, and volumetric's (transactional and data).Wow - this turned into a long post, suddenly.Anyway, all the above is merely my humble opinion - please don't read it as an attack, just a thought !Ciao*#&#* *#&#* *#&#* *#&#* Chaos, Disorder and Panic ... my work is done here! |
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