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Michael Valentine Jones
Yak DBA Kernel (pronounced Colonel)

USA
7020 Posts

Posted - 04/15/2008 :  17:16:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by tosscrosby

Now, now guys and gals, play nice! If some of these half-wits start losing their jobs because of us, how are we to amuse ourseleves??

Terry


Think of it as reallocation of valuable resources to a more suitable purpose.

The world needs janitors as well as DBAs.

A strong back is a terrible thing to waste.







CODO ERGO SUM
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RickD
Slow But Sure Yak Herding Master

United Kingdom
3608 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2008 :  05:26:25  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nr

Sometimes it's tempting to just answer the question that's been asked.

==========================================
Cursors are useful if you don't know sql.
DTS can be used in a similar way.
Beer is not cold and it isn't fizzy.


It is very tempting, especially someone with so many posts.
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cat_jesus
Aged Yak Warrior

547 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2008 :  08:01:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Valentine Jones

quote:
Originally posted by cat_jesus

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Valentine Jones
I am trying to imagine a possible reason for moving an existing, working system from an RDMS to VSAM.



You probably already know this but, the DB2 RDMS runs on VSAM files. At least it did last time I worked with it about 4 years ago.


I am we Todd Did!



I know, since that was explictly mentioned in the thread.

However, the poster means that they are moving away from using DB2 to using VSAM record access methods.

CODO ERGO SUM



I told you I was retarded! Yeah I checked out the thread after I posted of course.

I can certainly see why they would want to move from an RDBMS to VSAM though. Unfortunately the reason has more to do with laziness than anything else. I have noticed over the years that mainframe programmers have a fundamental misunderstanding of the power of a relational database.

For example, it is common to see people update a table based on values in another table by executing a SQL statement to put rows in a cursor and then update each individual row rather than embed the logic into a SQL statement and do an update.

Most cobol programmers just don't understand the power they have available to them so they process iteratively 4/16/2008 6:51AM

Edited by - cat_jesus on 04/16/2008 08:38:33
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Michael Valentine Jones
Yak DBA Kernel (pronounced Colonel)

USA
7020 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2008 :  10:06:15  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by cat_jesus

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Valentine Jones

quote:
Originally posted by cat_jesus

quote:
Originally posted by Michael Valentine Jones
I am trying to imagine a possible reason for moving an existing, working system from an RDMS to VSAM.



You probably already know this but, the DB2 RDMS runs on VSAM files. At least it did last time I worked with it about 4 years ago.


I am we Todd Did!



I know, since that was explictly mentioned in the thread.

However, the poster means that they are moving away from using DB2 to using VSAM record access methods.

CODO ERGO SUM



I told you I was retarded! Yeah I checked out the thread after I posted of course.

I can certainly see why they would want to move from an RDBMS to VSAM though. Unfortunately the reason has more to do with laziness than anything else. I have noticed over the years that mainframe programmers have a fundamental misunderstanding of the power of a relational database.

For example, it is common to see people update a table based on values in another table by executing a SQL statement to put rows in a cursor and then update each individual row rather than embed the logic into a SQL statement and do an update.

Most cobol programmers just don't understand the power they have available to them so they process iteratively 4/16/2008 6:51AM


It has more to do with being bad programmers than being mainframe or COBOL programmers. Bad programmers do bad work in any language, and good programmers do good work in any language.

I have written hundreds of COBOL programs and done plenty of work on mainframes, but I somehow managed to make a successful transition to using RDMS 20 years ago when it wasn’t yet the dominant technology.






CODO ERGO SUM
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Haywood
Posting Yak Master

USA
221 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2008 :  13:29:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=101094

Wow.


I'm going for that e-bay training right now! I've got £13.99 for $1500 worth of training...

I don't know what's worse...that someone would use this training and hope to get a job they were'nt qualified for. Or that the e-bay website in addition to it's excellent (heh) training, offers ways to bilk your cellular company and watch 3000+ channels for free.

<sigh>
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Curt Blood
Starting Member

USA
23 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2008 :  14:20:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Haywood

http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=101094

Wow.


I'm going for that e-bay training right now! I've got £13.99 for $1500 worth of training...

I don't know what's worse...that someone would use this training and hope to get a job they were'nt qualified for. Or that the e-bay website in addition to it's excellent (heh) training, offers ways to bilk your cellular company and watch 3000+ channels for free.

<sigh>



They could always be pointed to Kalman Toth's wonderful 75 hours of SQL training/web surfing!

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cat_jesus
Aged Yak Warrior

547 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2008 :  15:17:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Valentine Jones
It has more to do with being bad programmers than being mainframe or COBOL programmers. Bad programmers do bad work in any language, and good programmers do good work in any language.

I have written hundreds of COBOL programs and done plenty of work on mainframes, but I somehow managed to make a successful transition to using RDMS 20 years ago when it wasn’t yet the dominant technology.
CODO ERGO SUM



I guess. It seemed more prevalent for mainframers when I did mainframe programming as well as client server work. But now that I think about it, it's almost impossible to get a .net programmer to work on a mainframe. It's also hard to get them to stop using cursors.



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Haywood
Posting Yak Master

USA
221 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2008 :  16:23:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Curt Blood

They could always be pointed to Kalman Toth's wonderful 75 hours of SQL training/web surfing!





Ok yeah, that's worse.
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SwePeso
Patron Saint of Lost Yaks

Sweden
30121 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2008 :  16:42:56  Show Profile  Visit SwePeso's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Oh, him.

BTW, anyone here planning to attend his 4-day workshop?
I would love to here from someone who met this guy live.



E 12°55'05.25"
N 56°04'39.16"
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Michael Valentine Jones
Yak DBA Kernel (pronounced Colonel)

USA
7020 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2008 :  17:38:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Peso

Oh, him.

BTW, anyone here planning to attend his 4-day workshop?
I would love to here from someone who met this guy live.



E 12°55'05.25"
N 56°04'39.16"




Didn't he have a training video where he was trying to demo something, couldn't get it to work because of FK constraints, and dropped the constraint to get it to work? That's something to show new developers: First drop all those annoying constraints.

I think there was another one where he lecturing, his cell phone started ringing, and he answered and had a conversation. I guess he was just too lazy to edit it out of the video. I wonder if his phone conversation counted as part of the “75 hours of SQL training”?







CODO ERGO SUM
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SwePeso
Patron Saint of Lost Yaks

Sweden
30121 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2008 :  18:33:06  Show Profile  Visit SwePeso's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yes, the very same guy. Who is occupying pages 23-25 of this topic



E 12°55'05.25"
N 56°04'39.16"
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blindman
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

USA
2365 Posts

Posted - 04/16/2008 :  18:56:59  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Peso
BTW, anyone here planning to attend his 4-day workshop?
I would love to here from someone who met this guy live.

If you've followed some of the post links in the Twit List thread, then I'm sure you've met a few of them.

e4 d5 xd5 Nf6
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pootle_flump
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

United Kingdom
1064 Posts

Posted - 04/17/2008 :  09:23:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I started using IT Toolbox recently - there is a forum that is a great fit for a project I am on. I loved the whole web 2 point oh community feel of it...until I saw SQLUSA was one of the uber posters over there. The fact he is left unchecked to post what he likes totally devalues the whole site for me. It doesn't matter how many blogs, articles, wikis, networking opportunities there are - if SQLUSA is one of your principle BI\ DB posters then your site (to quote that delightful Americanism) sucks a$$.

He lasted about 10 minutes here. If he popped up at DBF we would have a good go at beating that record.
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elancaster
A very urgent SQL Yakette

United Kingdom
1208 Posts

Posted - 04/18/2008 :  05:14:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
oh dear....

http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=101257

Em
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DavidChel
Constraint Violating Yak Guru

USA
474 Posts

Posted - 04/18/2008 :  11:21:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by elancaster

oh dear....

http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=101257

Em



Wasn't hwoarang the name of a Tekken fighter?
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elancaster
A very urgent SQL Yakette

United Kingdom
1208 Posts

Posted - 04/18/2008 :  13:41:07  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DavidChel

quote:
Originally posted by elancaster

oh dear....

http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=101257

Em



Wasn't hwoarang the name of a Tekken fighter?



maybe a sound effect

Em
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cat_jesus
Aged Yak Warrior

547 Posts

Posted - 04/18/2008 :  14:13:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm a bad, bad cat.

http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=101272

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cat_jesus
Aged Yak Warrior

547 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2008 :  11:41:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You tried to help but you suck for not being able to read my mind.

http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=101379
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SwePeso
Patron Saint of Lost Yaks

Sweden
30121 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2008 :  11:48:25  Show Profile  Visit SwePeso's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yes, I know. I have to improve my readminding skills considerably.



E 12°55'05.25"
N 56°04'39.16"
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jezemine
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

USA
2886 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2008 :  14:21:09  Show Profile  Visit jezemine's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Peso

Yes, I know. I have to improve my readminding skills considerably.



E 12°55'05.25"
N 56°04'39.16"




maybe Toth has some DVDs on that topic too?


elsasoft.org
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