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SwePeso
Patron Saint of Lost Yaks

Sweden
30217 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2011 :  17:11:15  Show Profile  Visit SwePeso's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Joe is OK. He knows his stuff but may be too much focused on portability and purity.

We are experts in Microsoft SQL Server and he is not.
Not that long ago when I wrote my presentation about Relational Division I wrote a query that is about 500 times faster (5+ hours down to 30 sek). Same result, just less resources and time.


N 56°04'39.26"
E 12°55'05.63"
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russell
Pyro-ma-ni-yak

USA
5072 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2011 :  17:24:34  Show Profile  Visit russell's Homepage  Reply with Quote
He doesn't know his stuff as much as he acts like he does. Anyone who speaks in platitudes and absolutes as he does is (1) often wrong and (2) extremely annoying.

I will agree he understands relational theory.

I don't believe that he has much expertise in real world implementation.

Further, portability is an unattainable goal. Remember when Java was going to solve the world's probelms by being able to run on any platform? That never exactly materialized. The second that business developers start writing code, it instantly becomes proprietary. If I have 100 instances of SQL Server, I'm not terribly interested whether or not my code runs on DB2. I am interested in making sure it runs as efficiently as possible on SQL Server.

That is the situation most IT professionals are in.

I once wrote a tool that mimicked query analyzer that I ran against DB2 and Oracle. It was a little crude, but in the shop I worked in, we had all 3 and I was tired of the tools that I had for DB2. I still had to actually write DB2 compliant T-SQL statements for them to run against it.

In any event, I've never met Joe, but have a mutual friend that I respect very much who tells me Joe's not as bad as he comes off here. I guess I'll reserve final judgement until I meet him, but as of now, I'm terribly offended by the way he treats junior members here.
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robvolk
Most Valuable Yak

USA
15663 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2011 :  17:59:00  Show Profile  Visit robvolk's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by russell
In any event, I've never met Joe, but have a mutual friend that I respect very much who tells me Joe's not as bad as he comes off here.
That's the point, he's very likable in person, and he's an excellent public speaker. I posted some time ago that the internet is Joe Celko's psychiatrist, but he does take it way too far.
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Lumbago
Norsk Yak Master

Norway
3271 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2011 :  02:36:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Joe might be the greatest thing since Ghandi in real life for all I care...but online he's a complete ass and if this was my site I'd ban him in a heartbeat. He brings NOTHING but bad spirit and spam to the forums and personally I could live very well without both. Being the author of some books and speaking publicly about the subject we love the most does not give him some sort of universal forgiveness for treating people like he does.

- Lumbago
My blog-> http://thefirstsql.com/2011/02/07/regular-expressions-advanced-string-matching-and-new-split-function-sql-server-2008-r2/
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russell
Pyro-ma-ni-yak

USA
5072 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2011 :  10:28:25  Show Profile  Visit russell's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Lumbago

Joe might be the greatest thing since Ghandi in real life for all I care...but online he's a complete ass and if this was my site I'd ban him in a heartbeat. He brings NOTHING but bad spirit and spam to the forums and personally I could live very well without both. Being the author of some books and speaking publicly about the subject we love the most does not give him some sort of universal forgiveness for treating people like he does.

- Lumbago
My blog-> http://thefirstsql.com/2011/02/07/regular-expressions-advanced-string-matching-and-new-split-function-sql-server-2008-r2/


I agree. I'm an admin on SQL Mag forums. It used to be as popular as this site. We had one particular member who constantly badgered members (and was almost always wrong in his posts). I'm convinced that single user chased dozens, if not hundreds, of members away. The other admins and I wanted to ban the guy, but the editors didn't want us to. That user is banned from this site I believe. Luckily Joe doesn't post as much as this guy did lol
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GilaMonster
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

South Africa
4507 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2011 :  17:17:14  Show Profile  Visit GilaMonster's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by robvolk

quote:
Originally posted by russell
In any event, I've never met Joe, but have a mutual friend that I respect very much who tells me Joe's not as bad as he comes off here.
That's the point, he's very likable in person, and he's an excellent public speaker.


He is. I've met him at PASS Summit and he's soft-spoken and a complete gentleman.

His online persona is an act, it's how he wants to come across online. That I think just makes it worse. It's not that he's arrogant and doesn't realise how he's coming across. Rather he's coming across exactly as he intends.

--
Gail Shaw
SQL Server MVP
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russell
Pyro-ma-ni-yak

USA
5072 Posts

Posted - 06/24/2011 :  17:48:52  Show Profile  Visit russell's Homepage  Reply with Quote
So he Fs with people from the safety of behind his keyboard, but is nice to them in person?

hmmm
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Sean Frost
Starting Member

USA
19 Posts

Posted - 06/25/2011 :  08:57:32  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I would conjecture that Celko's online persona is the real thing; that the allegedly polite and soft-spoken character is an act. His pretense in real life of being a nice person is similar to that of the robber who on occasion pretends or acts like an honest person.

If you are an honest person you never rob someone, whether online or offline. If you are a decent human being, you don't talk down to or insult others whether online or offline.

I don't post much on this forum, but I read it regularly; a lot of what I learned about SQL can be attributed to the expertise and kindness of the people on this forum. So I, along with countless others who I am sure find this forum to be of immense value, would like to see it thrive and be a place where anyone can ask questions. I don't want to see it be a place where self-professed experts with a holier-than-thou attitude intimidate novices.

Put yourself in the shoes of someone who is asking a question for the very first time on this forum. Imagine that s/he has limited English language skills.

She says something like this:

"I have a table tblCustomer which has a field called lastname".

And the response s/he gets from this imbecile Celko is:

"There is no such thing as a field, you stupid moron! Prefixing table names with tbl is like eating a baby without ketchup you idiot, (http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=159291) and don't ever come back here until you learn ISO-43232323, blah blah blah...".

A lot of people who see that may take the castigation seriously and never come back to the forum ever again.

So, I want to add my voice to Lumbago's and beseech those who own/run this forum or are influential (robvolk, tkizer, graz, peso etc...). I am begging you, please, ban this charlatan!

Lumbago, if you were a girl, I could have kissed you (or the other way around) for saying it like it is. I was a coward and the only response I ever posted to Celko's diatribes was a tonuge-in-cheek reply (http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=161897)
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robvolk
Most Valuable Yak

USA
15663 Posts

Posted - 06/25/2011 :  09:29:05  Show Profile  Visit robvolk's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Not sure how we'd go about implementing it, but something like this has always intrigued me:

http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2011/06/suspension-ban-or-hellban.html

Especially the "ninth circle" hellban, where only hellbanned users can see each other. I imagine the fun Joe would have with the likes of Crespo, dtong, and some of our other colorful characters.
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Lumbago
Norsk Yak Master

Norway
3271 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2011 :  07:24:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sean: I must say that your response in the thread you linked (http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=161897) was great :) And even though I've never met him in person myself, I find it much easier to believe that his politeness and gentleman-like conduct in real life is an act and that his true nature is revealed online. A decent person would never mock a newbie or anyone else for asking questions... I have more or less decided that whenever I see Celko giving shit to someone I'll give him shit back...unless graz comes up with a hellban script that works

- Lumbago
My blog-> http://thefirstsql.com/2011/02/07/regular-expressions-advanced-string-matching-and-new-split-function-sql-server-2008-r2/
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jimf
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

USA
2869 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2011 :  07:34:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Maybe he could put a link to SQLUSA at the bottom of Joe's advertisements that stays there for a certain number of days. Increasing each time there's a malevolent post.

Jim

Everyday I learn something that somebody else already knew
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webfred
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

Germany
8764 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2011 :  07:37:36  Show Profile  Visit webfred's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jimf

Maybe he could put a link to SQLUSA at the bottom of Joe's advertisements that stays there for a certain number of days. Increasing each time there's a malevolent post.

Jim

Everyday I learn something that somebody else already knew


that's a very bad (evil) idea


No, you're never too old to Yak'n'Roll if you're too young to die.

Edited by - webfred on 06/27/2011 07:38:37
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nigelrivett
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

United Kingdom
3383 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2011 :  07:51:37  Show Profile  Visit nigelrivett's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I don't usually do this but
http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=162295



==========================================
Cursors are useful if you don't know sql.
SSIS can be used in a similar way.
Beer is not cold and it isn't fizzy.
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Lumbago
Norsk Yak Master

Norway
3271 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2011 :  07:51:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
C'mon Fred...where's your sense of humor?? I thought it was an excellent idea

- Lumbago
My blog-> http://thefirstsql.com/2011/02/07/regular-expressions-advanced-string-matching-and-new-split-function-sql-server-2008-r2/
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nigelrivett
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

United Kingdom
3383 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2011 :  08:13:40  Show Profile  Visit nigelrivett's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by russell

He doesn't know his stuff as much as he acts like he does. Anyone who speaks in platitudes and absolutes as he does is (1) often wrong and (2) extremely annoying.

I will agree he understands relational theory.

I don't believe that he has much expertise in real world implementation.

Further, portability is an unattainable goal. Remember when Java was going to solve the world's probelms by being able to run on any platform? That never exactly materialized. The second that business developers start writing code, it instantly becomes proprietary. If I have 100 instances of SQL Server, I'm not terribly interested whether or not my code runs on DB2. I am interested in making sure it runs as efficiently as possible on SQL Server.

That is the situation most IT professionals are in.

I once wrote a tool that mimicked query analyzer that I ran against DB2 and Oracle. It was a little crude, but in the shop I worked in, we had all 3 and I was tired of the tools that I had for DB2. I still had to actually write DB2 compliant T-SQL statements for them to run against it.

In any event, I've never met Joe, but have a mutual friend that I respect very much who tells me Joe's not as bad as he comes off here. I guess I'll reserve final judgement until I meet him, but as of now, I'm terribly offended by the way he treats junior members here.



He does have experience in implementations but not sql server (or at least not sql server specific).

He should add "Listen to what I say not the way I say it" to his signature.

Think this idea of labels complying with standards is a bit of a fantasy though.

==========================================
Cursors are useful if you don't know sql.
SSIS can be used in a similar way.
Beer is not cold and it isn't fizzy.
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elwoos
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

United Kingdom
2050 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2011 :  08:57:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Maybe i'm just perverse but I think we should adopt a "standard" for posts e.g. thou must never include lists of books, and berate anyone who fails to comply with the standard

Steve

-----------

What color do you want that database?
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nigelrivett
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

United Kingdom
3383 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2011 :  09:18:51  Show Profile  Visit nigelrivett's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I'm retiring at the end of this week (nothing special - tried it a number of times before and it doesn't stick).
Might have time to write books now so I disagree.

Busy with open university studies at the moment though so I guess not.

==========================================
Cursors are useful if you don't know sql.
SSIS can be used in a similar way.
Beer is not cold and it isn't fizzy.
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Michael Valentine Jones
Yak DBA Kernel (pronounced Colonel)

USA
7020 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2011 :  09:36:27  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by nigelrivett

I'm retiring at the end of this week (nothing special - tried it a number of times before and it doesn't stick).
Might have time to write books now so I disagree.

Busy with open university studies at the moment though so I guess not.

==========================================
Cursors are useful if you don't know sql.
SSIS can be used in a similar way.
Beer is not cold and it isn't fizzy.



Good luck on your attempted retirement!

Does that mean you won't be posting here anymore?





CODO ERGO SUM
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nigelrivett
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

United Kingdom
3383 Posts

Posted - 06/27/2011 :  09:47:25  Show Profile  Visit nigelrivett's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Nope - lots more, just means I'm not getting paid for it.
Mind you I'm doing more than what is considered a full time university course so theoretically I won't have time.
I seem to find more time to study when I'm working full time as well though.

==========================================
Cursors are useful if you don't know sql.
SSIS can be used in a similar way.
Beer is not cold and it isn't fizzy.
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nigelrivett
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

United Kingdom
3383 Posts

Posted - 07/07/2011 :  10:09:17  Show Profile  Visit nigelrivett's Homepage  Reply with Quote
http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=162693
http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=162685


==========================================
Cursors are useful if you don't know sql.
SSIS can be used in a similar way.
Beer is not cold and it isn't fizzy.
Go to Top of Page
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