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blindman
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

USA
2365 Posts

Posted - 04/17/2009 :  15:27:53  Show Profile
Glad to hear you were amused. Finally, we are ALL laughing, though over different things...

________________________________________________
If it is not practically useful, then it is practically useless.
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SwePeso
Patron Saint of Lost Yaks

Sweden
30113 Posts

Posted - 04/17/2009 :  15:29:23  Show Profile  Visit SwePeso's Homepage
quote:
Originally posted by whitefang

Actually, it's more like Rocky Marciano trying to box Nikolay Valuev. Rocky was great in his day but the technique and the game has changed significantly but foolishly thinks he can box with the current best.

Mr Valuev seems like a well balanced man
quote:
Once on a hunt not far from St. Petersburg, it is said Valuev wrestled and killed a wild boar using only his hands and teeth
quote:
Sergeyev was admitted to City Hospital No 3 where he was diagnosed as suffering from "closed craniocerebral injury, thorax and cerebral contusion." He threatened to launch a private civil suit against Valuev. He won the suit, and Valuev has now been ordered to pay 130,000 rubles (5,400 USD) in damages.
quote:
According to Valuev, he eats three kilos of meat daily
quote:
Total fights 52 - Wins 50 - KO 34.


Now have a look at Mr Marciano
quote:
Total fights 49 - Wins 49 - KO 43



E 12°55'05.63"
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Edited by - SwePeso on 04/17/2009 15:30:58
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whitefang
Enterprise-Level Plonker Who's Not Wrong

272 Posts

Posted - 04/17/2009 :  15:36:16  Show Profile
I don't know much about boxing, I just took 2 great fighters, one from the past....one modern. Let's face it though, using old boxing technique vs new boxing techniques, who do you think will win?

The game evolved, the fighters evolved, the technique evolved.

Unfortunately, you cannot say the same for DBAs.
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SwePeso
Patron Saint of Lost Yaks

Sweden
30113 Posts

Posted - 04/17/2009 :  15:40:42  Show Profile  Visit SwePeso's Homepage
I'll guess a boxer from ancient Greece would win a fight today. They were allowed to wrap lead pieces around their fists.
Today's boxers do wear protective gloves.


E 12°55'05.63"
N 56°04'39.26"

Edited by - SwePeso on 04/17/2009 15:41:26
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tkizer
Almighty SQL Goddess

USA
36613 Posts

Posted - 04/17/2009 :  16:22:39  Show Profile  Visit tkizer's Homepage
quote:
Originally posted by whitefang


Unfortunately, you cannot say the same for DBAs.


Most of the people you are arguing with in this topic are not DBAs.

Tara Kizer
Microsoft MVP for Windows Server System - SQL Server
http://weblogs.sqlteam.com/tarad/

Subscribe to my blog

"Let's begin with the premise that everything you've done up until this point is wrong."

Edited by - tkizer on 04/17/2009 16:22:54
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blindman
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

USA
2365 Posts

Posted - 04/17/2009 :  17:08:37  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by whitefang

I don't know much about boxing,...


...we've already gathered that you don't consider that a barrier to voicing your opinion.

________________________________________________
If it is not practically useful, then it is practically useless.
________________________________________________
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whitefang
Enterprise-Level Plonker Who's Not Wrong

272 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2009 :  08:28:43  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by tkizer

quote:
Originally posted by whitefang


Unfortunately, you cannot say the same for DBAs.


Most of the people you are arguing with in this topic are not DBAs.





That's what makes it so terrifying....
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SwePeso
Patron Saint of Lost Yaks

Sweden
30113 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2009 :  08:40:44  Show Profile  Visit SwePeso's Homepage
Hi WhiteFang.
Nice to have to back here.

Did you get those names for Microsoft SQL Server MVP who will endorse your case?



E 12°55'05.63"
N 56°04'39.26"
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theboyholty
Posting Yak Master

United Kingdom
221 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2009 :  12:00:05  Show Profile  Visit theboyholty's Homepage
Oh I see whats going on here. DBAs hate Developers and Developers hate DBAs. A developer comes on and makes a remark which makes him look, quite honestly, a bit ludicrous and won't back down even (or especially) in the face of global ridicule from a bunch of gloating DBAs.

Whitefang, old pal, you're not going to win this one. This is partly because people can be very brave from the safety of their own office / bedroom and also there's more of them than you. Not only that but they believe they right, just as much as you do. You're probably not even going to grab an unlikely draw. They all think you're an idiot. I'm sure you're more or less competant in what you do, otherwise you wouldn't be employed. You seem to talk the talk and to your credit, you're sticking to your guns - wholeheartedly believing in what you originally claimed. There's a lot to be said for that whether its right or wrong - I think you're wrong by the way but there's nothing surprising about that.

Sad thing is, its all gone a bit off topic and everyone's resorted to insults and cheap jibes of which you should all be ashamed. There's no harm in considering new ways of doing things, even if we then reject those ideas. Whitefang, you seem like a relatively young lad - six years in this profession is not a long time. I've been developing for double that and I still consider myself a student of the business. My mottos is "Everyday's a schoolday, and when that ceases to be true, i'll pack it in and do something else".
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cat_jesus
Aged Yak Warrior

547 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2009 :  12:13:48  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by theboyholty

... You seem to talk the talk and to your credit, you're sticking to your guns - wholeheartedly believing in what you originally claimed...


Why would you give someone credit for that? Making claims and not backing them up and being too stubborn to listen to experts in the field is to be commended?

Why?

Basically you're giving someone credit for having a religious belief about technology.


It boggles the mind.


__________________________________________________


An infinite universe is the ultimate cartesian product.
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whitefang
Enterprise-Level Plonker Who's Not Wrong

272 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2009 :  12:42:14  Show Profile
Actually, it is the DBAs who has the religious beliefs, not the developers who are atheist. Believe business logic should be in the database instead of data is a religious belief.

The DBA team should stick to designing, optimizing, maintaining the database. The architect team should design the foundation of the business logic (based on app reqs) and database abstraction layers, the designers will create the pro-type/mockup interfaces, the front end developers will create the actual interfaces.

When you got a DBA doing the architect and front-end developers jobs, you got a problem. The application layer provides many benefits a database could never provide. The app layer can provide proper encapsulation, better code-reuse, better reflection and intellisense, better caching techniques, better portability, lower costs.
You can have a multiple appservers for fraction of the cost for maintaining a DB server. Why would you overload the DB server with business logic that is poorly written (due to SQL) instead of writing a proper app layer??

Another Oracle DB server can cost over 10K (without the hardware). Another appserver can cost less than a thousand.

Edited by - whitefang on 04/20/2009 13:03:32
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blindman
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

USA
2365 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2009 :  13:10:41  Show Profile
No, Whitefang, it is definitely YOU who is harboring dogmatic beliefs.
I said, quite some time ago, that business logic should be divided into two classes: data logic, and interaction logic. Data logic should be kept close to the data layer, and interaction logic should be kept close to the application layer.
You are certainly not the "atheist" or even "agnostic" in this argument. You are simply an acolyte, or perhaps just a neophyte.

________________________________________________
If it is not practically useful, then it is practically useless.
________________________________________________
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whitefang
Enterprise-Level Plonker Who's Not Wrong

272 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2009 :  13:15:58  Show Profile
Interaction logic is presentation layer logic. Data logic is between business logic layer and data abstraction layer. A database is nothing more than for persistence and retrieval. All 3 layers are in the application layer.

Business logic layer handles all the "business logic" aspect of the application, client requirements, application specifications, system design. The data abstraction layer handles persistence, loading, and caching as well as constraints. The presentation layer handles all the UI events, controls, data entry etc. I don't know why you cannot understand this simple concept.

With the way the industry is moving, if you keep thinking data logic belongs in the database, be prepared to stand in the unemployment line in a couple of years.


EDIT: Another flexibility of application layer is that it can interface with other applications through web services etc. Database just doesn't have the flexibility.

Edited by - whitefang on 04/20/2009 13:21:10
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SwePeso
Patron Saint of Lost Yaks

Sweden
30113 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2009 :  13:24:43  Show Profile  Visit SwePeso's Homepage
If you have such a strong feeling for databases as datastore only, why are you not using simple text-files as your datastore?
All logic is supposed (according to you) to be handled in the app layer.



E 12°55'05.63"
N 56°04'39.26"
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SwePeso
Patron Saint of Lost Yaks

Sweden
30113 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2009 :  13:26:38  Show Profile  Visit SwePeso's Homepage
quote:
Originally posted by whitefang

Another flexibility of application layer is that it can interface with other applications through web services etc. Database just doesn't have the flexibility.
Yes they can.
Heard of sp_makewebtaks (even if it's deprecated)?



E 12°55'05.63"
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whitefang
Enterprise-Level Plonker Who's Not Wrong

272 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2009 :  13:27:45  Show Profile
While business entities can be serialized to xml files, it lacks any querying abilities of a database. As I said above, the database is used as a data store and for querying abilities. Not for business logic.
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whitefang
Enterprise-Level Plonker Who's Not Wrong

272 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2009 :  13:31:44  Show Profile
quote:
Originally posted by Peso

quote:
Originally posted by whitefang

Another flexibility of application layer is that it can interface with other applications through web services etc. Database just doesn't have the flexibility.
Yes they can.
Heard of sp_makewebtaks (even if it's deprecated)?



E 12°55'05.63"
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Just look at this http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa238843(SQL.80).aspx

It's horrible, no wonder it's deprecated. Now you got your database making url calls (great security risk)....it's not a database anymore. Next thing you know, it will cure cancer.

With .NET, you can simply create a webservice and serialize an object and pass it between applications. You can create a web service layer.
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SwePeso
Patron Saint of Lost Yaks

Sweden
30113 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2009 :  13:39:47  Show Profile  Visit SwePeso's Homepage
That's not the point. You wrote they didn't have the flexibility.
They do. And when I make a proof for you, you dismiss it. You won't even give us credit for proofing you wrong.

I think sp_makewebtask had it's use, but I prefer Service Broker now.

What do you think about storing XML or unstructured data in a database?
What do you think about Service Broker?



E 12°55'05.63"
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whitefang
Enterprise-Level Plonker Who's Not Wrong

272 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2009 :  13:46:56  Show Profile
No, they don't have the flexibility. Look at the API, you call that flexibility?


Storing XML data in DB has it's uses for certain situations. Service Broker, why use caveman tools? I use web services with intellisense.
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SwePeso
Patron Saint of Lost Yaks

Sweden
30113 Posts

Posted - 04/20/2009 :  13:56:30  Show Profile  Visit SwePeso's Homepage
Service Broker is "cave man" tool?
http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/ms166043(SQL.90).aspx

And, in which context are you using "Intellisense"?


E 12°55'05.63"
N 56°04'39.26"

Edited by - SwePeso on 04/20/2009 13:58:37
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