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 Database Normalization is overrated.
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DustinMichaels
Constraint Violating Yak Guru

464 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2004 :  15:52:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by X002548

so help me Codd



Brett

8-)



lol thats funny.

Dustin Michaels
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rockmoose
SQL Natt Alfen

Sweden
3279 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2004 :  16:18:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by X002548

so help me Codd


acid
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X002548
Not Just a Number

15586 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2004 :  17:07:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rockmoose

acid



No thanks...I'm driving....



Brett

8-)
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rockmoose
SQL Natt Alfen

Sweden
3279 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2004 :  17:18:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
amen
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ehorn
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

USA
1631 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2004 :  17:32:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by rockmoose

acid

No thanks...I'm driving....
This gave me a good laugh Brett !!


Edited by - ehorn on 11/30/2004 17:33:02
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GreatInca
Posting Yak Master

USA
102 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2004 :  20:05:14  Show Profile  Visit GreatInca's Homepage  Send GreatInca an AOL message  Send GreatInca a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
I like normalization. I like denormalization too. I prefer normalization and if multi-row select performance is needed, run a pre-joined pre-calculated cache table that is often a range subset (usually most recent xx days with one or more other where clause restraints). Materialized views have too much inefficient overhead as do cascading deletes.

****************************************
Check out my pictures at http://www.pbase.com/GreatInca

Check out my company's site!
http://www.jobing.com (Market picker for first visit)
http://phoenix.jobing.com (corporate home market if you don't live in a covered market)

Edited by - GreatInca on 11/30/2004 20:07:26
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rockmoose
SQL Natt Alfen

Sweden
3279 Posts

Posted - 01/11/2005 :  18:24:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
story continues on: tdan
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eyechart
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

USA
3575 Posts

Posted - 01/11/2005 :  19:54:53  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rockmoose

story continues on: tdan



here is a good quote from the link:

quote:

This is what happens in the absence of education: practitioners operate with blinders, believing that they avoid the very problems that they actually create.



while I was reading this article, I kept hearing 'body blow' over and over in my mind.

Moose, thanks for the link.



-ec
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jhermiz
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

USA
3564 Posts

Posted - 01/11/2005 :  22:38:11  Show Profile  Visit jhermiz's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Normalization? What's that :)


Keeping the web experience alive -- http://www.web-impulse.com


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rockmoose
SQL Natt Alfen

Sweden
3279 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2005 :  12:25:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by eyechart

while I was reading this article, I kept hearing 'body blow' over and over in my mind.

Could You elaborate?, I did not understand that.

quote:
Originally posted by jhermiz

Normalization? What's that :)

Yes, we know You are a webdeveloper *LOL*

quote:
Originally posted by X002548

I find this too coincidental...

Is Kevin really Fabian?

ummmhhmm... I like conspiracy theories too, this has potential.

rockmoose
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X002548
Not Just a Number

15586 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2005 :  13:00:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
HEY!

I'm not so sure I like Fabian using SQLTeam as a reference to the original post, without mentioning the response to this post.



Brett

8-)
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ehorn
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

USA
1631 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2005 :  13:05:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I was thinking on this also - At the very least perhaps include the link to the post so visitors can view the context and replies.
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rockmoose
SQL Natt Alfen

Sweden
3279 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2005 :  13:58:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Completely agree, give us a link.
Correct references to sources is a good thing.

rockmoose
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X002548
Not Just a Number

15586 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2005 :  14:01:16  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Whatdya mean?

I was refering to the link you posted

http://weblogs.sqlteam.com/brettk/archive/2005/01/12/3968.aspx



Brett

8-)
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ehorn
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

USA
1631 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2005 :  14:13:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think we are are saying the same thing Brett.
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X002548
Not Just a Number

15586 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2005 :  14:49:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
[doooh]

[/doooh]


Brett

8-)
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tkizer
Almighty SQL Goddess

USA
37142 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2005 :  19:40:13  Show Profile  Visit tkizer's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I wonder if 00kevin is subscribed to this thread and if so what he thinks about Fabian's article.

Tara
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derrickleggett
Pointy Haired Yak DBA

USA
4184 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2005 :  19:42:29  Show Profile  Visit derrickleggett's Homepage  Send derrickleggett an AOL message  Send derrickleggett a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
Well, this post has been worn to death I see. I'm actually glad people exist like you kevin. I've spent the last 11 years following behind people like you cleaning up the dung piles their denormalized (usually due to not knowing what a design process and logical data model are in the first place) databases leave behind.

Thanks for the business.

MeanOldDBA
derrickleggett@hotmail.com

When life gives you a lemon, fire the DBA.
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derrickleggett
Pointy Haired Yak DBA

USA
4184 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2005 :  20:11:09  Show Profile  Visit derrickleggett's Homepage  Send derrickleggett an AOL message  Send derrickleggett a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
quote:

My point is that in the real world you will NEVER have a complete understanding of the scope of the project you are working on. Business applications are always changing. You can't even imagine how your database will change over the next 5 years. You can make an educated guess, but that is no different the trying to predict the weather. Changes after changes will be made to your database and at some point it will break if you are too strict with normalization and enforcing referential integrity.




Urrrrr??? The whole scope thing is why you have relational integrity in the first place. As the needs of the business change, the flow of data around the model needs to change. If you change the base model though, you didn't design it right in the first place. Your applications will be constantly changing. If you are going to be accountable, compliant, etc and actually have data you can make educated decisions on 5 years down the road though, you MUST have relational integrity and normalization at the core of the model. If you don't believe me, come work with me for a few months. I'm currently cleaning up a mess like you will create if you follow this "enlightened" thinking of yours.

quote:

It will become a ball of wires because you will never have enough time to redesign major portions of the database. Most the changes you will make will end up being quick fixes just to complete the business requirement. You best friend will become the LEFT OUTER JOIN. The fact is, a business does not have the time or the money to waste on you redesigning the database everytime something new is requested.




It costs companies much more money each year to fix crap than it costs to design a good system that will last years. If a company doesn't have money and time to design a good database that will support new business processes as they are needed, they will not be in business to talk about it at some point anyway. Many companies spend so much time in the "growing phase" throwing sh@# on the wall, they come to a screeching halt as the company can no longer support it's own weight.

MeanOldDBA
derrickleggett@hotmail.com

When life gives you a lemon, fire the DBA.
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Michael Valentine Jones
Yak DBA Kernel (pronounced Colonel)

USA
7020 Posts

Posted - 01/13/2005 :  00:20:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not a bad troll, I give it a 4 out of 10. Points off for lack of originality, though.

quote:
Originally posted by 00kevin


...I'm starting to realize that a completely normalized database is far too complex to work with. Sure, it all works and looks great on paper, but it basically becomes a castle made of cards...


...I also think that enforcing referential integrity is over rated. I would much rather maintain database integrity with with stored procedures and well written application code...





Codo Ergo Sum
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