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 Database Normalization is overrated.
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X-Factor
Constraint Violating Yak Guru

392 Posts

Posted - 01/13/2005 :  11:32:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
If you don't believe me, come work with me for a few months.


Got any jobs going in the States then? I'll bring my C. J. Date book.

Edited by - X-Factor on 01/13/2005 11:33:34
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Stoad
Freaky Yak Linguist

*
1983 Posts

Posted - 01/15/2005 :  16:12:53  Show Profile  Visit Stoad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Normalization is a good thing but the common sense is always better:

select langid, shortmonths from master..syslanguages

langid shortmonths
------ ---------------------------------------------------------- 
0      Jan,Feb,Mar,Apr,May,Jun,Jul,Aug,Sep,Oct,Nov,Dec
1      Jan,Feb,Mar,Apr,Mai,Jun,Jul,Aug,Sep,Okt,Nov,Dez
2      janv,fevr,mars,avr,mai,juin,juil,aout,sept,oct,nov,dec
3      01,02,03,04,05,06,07,08,09,10,11,12
4      jan,feb,mar,apr,maj,jun,jul,aug,sep,okt,nov,dec
5      Ene,Feb,Mar,Abr,May,Jun,Jul,Ago,Sep,Oct,Nov,Dic
6      gen,feb,mar,apr,mag,giu,lug,ago,set,ott,nov,dic
7      jan,feb,mrt,apr,mei,jun,jul,aug,sep,okt,nov,dec
8      jan,feb,mar,apr,mai,jun,jul,aug,sep,okt,nov,des
9      jan,fev,mar,abr,mai,jun,jul,ago,set,out,nov,dez
10     tammi,helmi,maalis,huhti,touko,kesa,heina,elo,syys,loka,marras,joulu
11     jan,feb,mar,apr,maj,jun,jul,aug,sep,okt,nov,dec
12     I,II,III,IV,V,VI,VII,VIII,IX,X,XI,XII
13     jan,febr,marc,apr,maj,jun,jul,aug,szept,okt,nov,dec
14     I,II,III,IV,V,VI,VII,VIII,IX,X,XI,XII
15     Ian,Feb,Mar,Apr,Mai,Iun,Iul,Aug,Sep,Oct,Nov,Dec
16     sij,vel,ozu,tra,svi,lip,srp,kol,ruj,lis,stu,pro
17     I,II,III,IV,V,VI,VII,VIII,IX,X,XI,XII
18     jan,feb,mar,apr,maj,jun,jul,avg,sept,okt,nov,dec
19     ???,???,???,???,???,????,????,???,???,???,???,???
20     ÿíóàðè,ôåâðóàðè,ìàðò,àïðèë,ìàé,þíè,þëè,àâãóñò,ñåïòåìâðè,îêòîìâðè,íîåìâðè,äåêåìâðè
21     ÿíâ,ôåâ,ìàð,àïð,ìàé,èþí,èþë,àâã,ñåí,îêò,íîÿ,äåê
22     Oca,Sub,Mar,Nis,May,Haz,Tem,Agu,Eyl,Eki,Kas,Ara
23     Jan,Feb,Mar,Apr,May,Jun,Jul,Aug,Sep,Oct,Nov,Dec
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Stoad
Freaky Yak Linguist

*
1983 Posts

Posted - 01/16/2005 :  07:11:31  Show Profile  Visit Stoad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Just in case, for those who didn't notice:

table syslanguages demonstrates violation of 1NF.

And what then? Should I start laughing at this terrible fact?
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nr
SQLTeam MVY

United Kingdom
12543 Posts

Posted - 01/16/2005 :  07:48:42  Show Profile  Visit nr's Homepage  Reply with Quote
You think sql server is always written using best practices?
Look at some of the system SPs - I'll admit they tend to be a lot better than in 6.5 (where they looked like a lot were written by trainees) but there are still oddities. A lot have been cleared up by users pointing out problems.

You also have to look at useage - maybe that data is needed in that form and is derived from normalised data and saved like this for performance (if it is a permanent table).

==========================================
Cursors are useful if you don't know sql.
DTS can be used in a similar way.
Beer is not cold and it isn't fizzy.
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ehorn
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

USA
1631 Posts

Posted - 01/16/2005 :  08:05:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Be watchful Stoad - This observation just may make front page in the February issue of dbdebunk.
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Stoad
Freaky Yak Linguist

*
1983 Posts

Posted - 01/16/2005 :  09:24:10  Show Profile  Visit Stoad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
lol, nr,
I am a humble programmer and can say nothing on this and
personally I count S.S. as a product of VERY HIGH QUALITY.
Also, be sure, I ALWAYS & STRONGLY prefer to do my best for normalizing my tables.

ehorn;

aha :) we'll see.
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X-Factor
Constraint Violating Yak Guru

392 Posts

Posted - 01/16/2005 :  15:56:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
table syslanguages demonstrates violation of 1NF


Can you explain why?

C.J.Date writes that a table is in first normal form if every column has a value. This appears to be the case.
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X-Factor
Constraint Violating Yak Guru

392 Posts

Posted - 01/16/2005 :  16:31:18  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
http://www.dbdebunk.com/page/page/622318.htm

I think this is relevant.
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X-Factor
Constraint Violating Yak Guru

392 Posts

Posted - 01/16/2005 :  16:34:42  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh its a CSV, silly me!
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Stoad
Freaky Yak Linguist

*
1983 Posts

Posted - 01/16/2005 :  18:29:10  Show Profile  Visit Stoad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
>if every column has a value

has A value! Not valueS!

I can't think of string Jan,Feb,Mar,Apr,May,Jun,Jul,Aug,Sep,Oct,Nov,Dec

other than of list of valueS. The string itself (as whole) appears quite meaningless for me.
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Stoad
Freaky Yak Linguist

*
1983 Posts

Posted - 01/16/2005 :  19:29:49  Show Profile  Visit Stoad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
btw, I checked it and my wild guess proved to be right:

select @@language
select month('31 ZZZ 2006')
select shortmonths from master..syslanguages where langid=22

---------
Turkce

---------
1

shortmonths
----------------------------------------------------
ZZZ,Sub,Mar,Nis,May,Haz,Tem,Agu,Eyl,Eki,Kas,Ara
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X-Factor
Constraint Violating Yak Guru

392 Posts

Posted - 01/17/2005 :  06:55:12  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
>if every column has a value

has A value! Not valueS!



Yes that makes sense. Thanks!
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Stoad
Freaky Yak Linguist

*
1983 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2005 :  03:14:24  Show Profile  Visit Stoad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Note how gently BOL puts it: Reasonable normalization.
Does it mean there is Non-Reasonable normalization?

Quote:
Normalizing a logical database design involves using formal methods to separate
the data into multiple, related tables. A greater number of narrow tables (with fewer
columns) is characteristic of a normalized database. A few wide tables (with more
columns) is characteristic of an unnormalized database.


Reasonable normalization will often improve performance. When useful indexes are
available, the Microsoft® SQL Server™ query optimizer is efficient at selecting rapid,
efficient joins between tables.

Some of the benefits of normalization include:
1. Faster sorting and index creation.
2. A larger number of clustered indexes.
3. Narrower and more compact indexes.
4. Fewer indexes per table, which improves the performance of INSERT,
UPDATE, and DELETE statements.
5. Fewer NULL values and less opportunity for inconsistency,
which increase database compactness.


As normalization increases, so will the number and complexity of joins required to
retrieve data. Too many complex relational joins between too many tables can hinder
performance. Reasonable normalization often includes few regularly executed queries
that use joins involving more than four tables.
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Stoad
Freaky Yak Linguist

*
1983 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2005 :  08:10:37  Show Profile  Visit Stoad's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Fabian, it's worthy to read: how americans used to "normalize" things.

and it's not a "level" of their education.
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X002548
Not Just a Number

15586 Posts

Posted - 06/06/2005 :  10:16:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just re-read this thread, and if my friend Robert had actually read this, I don't see how they could make their comments in my blog

http://weblogs.sqlteam.com/brettk/archive/2005/01/12/3968.aspx


Maybe I worked too hard this weekend, and I'm a little tired...but this pi$$e$ me off



Brett

8-)

Hint: Want your questions answered fast? Follow the direction in this link
http://weblogs.sqlteam.com/brettk/archive/2005/05/25/5276.aspx
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