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 Official "XML SUCKS" thread
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amachanic
SQL Server MVP

USA
169 Posts

Posted - 01/14/2005 :  09:07:09  Show Profile  Visit amachanic's Homepage  Reply with Quote
LOL!

I hope they do give a nice, *logical* response... I'm waiting!
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Sitka
Aged Yak Warrior

USA
571 Posts

Posted - 01/14/2005 :  09:55:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
http://msdn.microsoft.com/office/understanding/officesystem/fabrikam/introfabrikam/

Intro to fabrikam, hopefully this demo will answer some questions as to why? If it ever comes out.

Long term I don't get the value of XML because if everything can talk to everything all at once, why does one need to persist data anywhere but in the database.

I wish someone would start an Official XML Rant Thread.
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ehorn
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

USA
1631 Posts

Posted - 01/14/2005 :  10:17:39  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

A letter to the rabid anti-xml-ites (in the voice of Kozmo Kramer) ,

I would not consider myself a "fanboy" or an expert - but an observer. As such, I will not so-quickly dismiss its viablility potential - as it is being embraced by so many industry leaders with ongoing research by resources much more capable than myself. No, I will not subscribe to such vanity.

But I also very much agree with such observations:
quote:
"From time to time, the computer industry faces crescendos of enthusiasm and wild surges of activity. In the last few years, XML has been heralded as "a true panacea" (for all the Web's problems), "the universal language" (for data on the Web), "a whole new processing paradigm is born", "the second Web revolution" (rise of Java was seen by many as the "first Web revolution"), "a killer application" (that is going to change everything from E-Commerce to object packaging and distribution), and several other metaphors that have bypassed content rating. A revolution brings major upheavals and changes, not all "good", to the society, and does not by itself provide positive solutions."

An impartial assessment of XML - http://www.tech.irt.org/articles/js203/

In summary - It can create unrealistic public expectations about XML's potential to change the world (and beyond, if the world is not enough) and reference concludes - with which I concur:
quote:
"If XML is a revolution, should we immediately (and blindly) embrace it? If XML is just a media hype created "by the people, for the people," should we ignore it as a passing phenomenon? The XML applications demonstrate that neither extreme is true. A balance in deployment based on careful study, reflection and experimentation, is therefore necessary."

PS.

With regards to the "nice, *logical*" response - a simple google search did turn up several references of research pertaining to this question.

Here is one of many - http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/553466.html
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X-Factor
Constraint Violating Yak Guru

392 Posts

Posted - 01/14/2005 :  13:58:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
XML is good for some things. Imagine how difficult it would be defining an HTML page if you had to group all objects of the same type together? The real world isn't normalized - things are jumbled up.

Edited by - X-Factor on 01/15/2005 13:48:22
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byrmol
Shed Building SQL Farmer

Australia
1591 Posts

Posted - 01/14/2005 :  16:55:43  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:

There is no XML Model of Data, and no logical foundation on which to base one.



I don't think that is quite right. XML is a subset of SGML and that is based on the hierarchy model AFAIK. During the great debate (Codd vs Rest of the World), it was Codd who attempted to formalise the hierarchy model so he could compare it to RM. No guess which one he thought was better, this is SQLTeam and not IMSTeam after all.

About 4 years ago, I had to build a little DB app that talked to a card reader and HR system. The card reader application had its own data schemas and formats and from this I built a nice little RM based model in SQL Server.

The HR system took either a CSV or XML input stream. I choose CSV.
About 2 days later, the "scope" changes and now a web interface is also required. I like to have as little do with HTML as possible, so I thought for a while about the whole thing and decided that I would stream out XML at the middle tier. The HR and WEB data exchange routines where identical except for a stylesheet parameter.

Granted I could have achieved the same thing with CSV, but as Damian pointed out, tools for XML are pretty good.

XML has uses, just as human waste does.

DavidM

"Always pre-heat the oven"
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nr
SQLTeam MVY

United Kingdom
12543 Posts

Posted - 01/15/2005 :  14:35:00  Show Profile  Visit nr's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I was at a company where we had to send some data to another company several times a day. This was sent as a csv string.
A developer (and manager) decided this should be changed to xml.
I was a bit surprised that the transfer took a similar amount of time and the files were a similar size.
Looking at a file the developer had just put tags around the csv string (not even around the individual rows).
Anyway they were happy and the manager could tell the board that the system was xml based and so was very flexible and would show great savings in development.


==========================================
Cursors are useful if you don't know sql.
DTS can be used in a similar way.
Beer is not cold and it isn't fizzy.
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ehorn
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

USA
1631 Posts

Posted - 01/15/2005 :  17:43:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That is funny stuff! But hey, a Win-Win
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Merkin
Funky Drop Bear Fearing SQL Dude!

Australia
4970 Posts

Posted - 01/15/2005 :  19:12:26  Show Profile  Visit Merkin's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:

Anyway they were happy and the manager could tell the board that the system was xml based and so was very flexible and would show great savings in development.





HAHAHAHAHA
You can't make stuff like that up. That's priceless.


Damian
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amachanic
SQL Server MVP

USA
169 Posts

Posted - 01/15/2005 :  20:19:16  Show Profile  Visit amachanic's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I had the same kind of situation at a past job -- the application did not use XML in any way -- one of the managers asked me if I could use some XML in the product somewhere, so I implemented one of the HTTP handlers using the XMLHTTP object instead of the WinHTTP object that we had been using. Same functionality, no real change from my perspective (same properties, methods, etc) ...

Two weeks later, added to the product sales website in big bold font: "XML-Compatible!!!!"

LOL!!
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rockmoose
SQL Natt Alfen

Sweden
3279 Posts

Posted - 01/15/2005 :  20:47:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Merkin

quote:

Anyway they were happy and the manager could tell the board that the system was xml based and so was very flexible and would show great savings in development.





HAHAHAHAHA
You can't make stuff like that up. That's priceless.


Damian


Makes me want to cry...

rockmoose
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X002548
Not Just a Number

15586 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2005 :  13:13:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I was just asked yesterday id sql server could supply a web app with pure XML...sure I said

SELECT '<tag>'+Col1+</tag>'

And can we pass in XML to Procedures?

Sure...

SELECT CHARINDEX...

I still have to see what they're looking to do....just wonder what's wrong with the mthodolgy we have in place now....



Brett

8-)

Hint: Want your questions answered fast? Follow the direction in this link
http://weblogs.sqlteam.com/brettk/archive/2005/05/25/5276.aspx
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amachanic
SQL Server MVP

USA
169 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2005 :  13:16:31  Show Profile  Visit amachanic's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Brett,

Not that I think it's a good idea, but you might consider looking up FOR XML and OPENXML in BOL...



---
Adam Machanic
SQL Server MVP
http://www.datamanipulation.net
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AjarnMark
SQL Slashing Gunting Master

USA
3246 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2005 :  13:19:32  Show Profile  Visit AjarnMark's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Sounds like a great time to sell them on upgrading to 2005 as soon as it comes out since XML is a native data type then.

---------------------------
EmeraldCityDomains.com
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rockmoose
SQL Natt Alfen

Sweden
3279 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2005 :  13:47:29  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AjarnMark

Sounds like a great time to sell them on upgrading to 2005 as soon as it comes out since XML is a native data type then.

---------------------------
EmeraldCityDomains.com



XML datatype sounds like a rock bottom reason to upgrade.
Data is relational, not hierarchical in nature.

If You never leave the xml-format, then of course it makes sense storing the data as xml.
But be prepared to loose flexibility and gain complexity in such an approach.

rockmoose
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Kristen
Test

United Kingdom
22403 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2005 :  13:52:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What did Henry Ford say : "Simplificate and add lightness" or somesuch ... he'll be rolling in his grave!

Kristen
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rockmoose
SQL Natt Alfen

Sweden
3279 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2005 :  14:27:33  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
What did Henry Ford say : "Simplificate and add lightness" or somesuch ... he'll be rolling in his grave!



Could not find that quote, but a whole lot of others

"Women do not win formula one races, because they simply are not strong enough to resist the G-forces. In the boardroom, it is different. I believe women are better able to marshal their thoughts than men and because they are less egotistical they make fewer assumptions."

Not bad!!!

By HF according to this internet site;
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/h/henry_ford.html

PS.
"add lightness"
Contradiction in terms.. eh ?

What about this one:
quote:
Henry Ford
Thinking is the hardest work there is, which is probably the reason why so few engage in it.


rockmoose
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AjarnMark
SQL Slashing Gunting Master

USA
3246 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2005 :  16:05:53  Show Profile  Visit AjarnMark's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Rocko, I am no lover of XML. I was thinking that, hey, it'd be great to upgrade to 2005, and if I can use XML as a lever to get there because that's what management thinks it wants, then great, I'd use it. But I can't say I've run into any situation where I'd likely store something in XML. So, I would only use XML as a reason to upgrade because management was in love with it, and I was looking for the other benefits that would come along.

---------------------------
EmeraldCityDomains.com
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rockmoose
SQL Natt Alfen

Sweden
3279 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2005 :  17:11:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:


Rocko, I am no lover of XML. I was thinking that, hey, it'd be great to upgrade to 2005, and if I can use XML as a lever to get there because that's what management thinks it wants, then great, I'd use it. But I can't say I've run into any situation where I'd likely store something in XML. So, I would only use XML as a reason to upgrade because management was in love with it, and I was looking for the other benefits that would come along.


You're not going to quote yourself on the next xml selling project/gig to managment are You!

I think You will use an appropriate technology for the job, weighing all the factors. Being much more pragmatic and realistic than many "techies" who do seem in love with technology A or B.

I can see that when it comes to negotiations with upper managment all the weights in the scale count!

rockmoose
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AjarnMark
SQL Slashing Gunting Master

USA
3246 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2005 :  18:20:56  Show Profile  Visit AjarnMark's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rockmoose


You're not going to quote yourself on the next xml selling project/gig to managment are You!

Heck no! Unless I can figure a way to spin it to my advantage.

---------------------------
EmeraldCityDomains.com
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rockmoose
SQL Natt Alfen

Sweden
3279 Posts

Posted - 08/19/2005 :  18:45:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Maybe You can even leverage it somehow so that You get more powerful hardware in the process,
You know stripping all those tags is not for free!

rockmoose
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