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eyechart
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge
USA
3575 Posts |
 Posted - 05/09/2005 : 01:18:18
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Terraserver is not an OLTP environment. It is a large datawarehouse. SQL Server is a great choice for datawarehousing, especially the 64bit version.
My issue with SQL Server is due to the recovery model that microsoft has chosen to use. In a nutshell, you can lose data up to the interval of your transaction log backups. This really comes into play in a large transactional environment - which an ERP system like SAP is a good example. Even with backing up every 5 minutes you would still be at risk. This is especially bad for an ERP environment because everything is so closely integrated with many different modules all referencing the same base tables.
-ec |
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robvolk
Most Valuable Yak
USA
15559 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2005 : 08:16:53
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| Wouldn't this potential loss be mitigated by clustering, RAID, and database mirroring (in SQL2005)? In other words, proper data replication and redundancy? |
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Frost
Starting Member
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2005 : 19:18:42
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Is the language between the different SQL groups common? In other words CREATE DATABASE or CREATE TABLE, or, CREATE TRIGGER means the same in MySQL, PostgreSQL, Sybase, MS SQL, etc etc ?? Or, is there some soft of standard language, with slight variances between DBMS? I would understand that it would be impossible to make them all the same, but the basic language an way they work should be the same, should't it?
Vernon
"Never argue with an idiot..they will only bring you down to their level and beat you with years of experience" |
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eyechart
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge
USA
3575 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2005 : 19:54:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Frost
Is the language between the different SQL groups common? In other words CREATE DATABASE or CREATE TABLE, or, CREATE TRIGGER means the same in MySQL, PostgreSQL, Sybase, MS SQL, etc etc ?? Or, is there some soft of standard language, with slight variances between DBMS? I would understand that it would be impossible to make them all the same, but the basic language an way they work should be the same, should't it?
yes, there is the ANSI standard. The major databases have varying levels of ANSI compliance. They all also have their own extensions to this standard that are somewhat proprietary.
-ec |
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byrmol
Shed Building SQL Farmer
Australia
1591 Posts |
Posted - 05/09/2005 : 20:37:40
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I thought the ANSI-SQL committee imploded after the debacle of the SQL-99 "standard". Pointers for f$%k sake in RM!!! Death to them!
DavidM
A front-end is something that tries to violate a back-end. |
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eyechart
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge
USA
3575 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2005 : 03:28:21
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quote:
Originally posted by byrmol
I thought the ANSI-SQL committee imploded after the debacle of the SQL-99 "standard". Pointers for f$%k sake in RM!!! Death to them!
A front-end is something that tries to violate a back-end.
You are probabaly right. I haven't heard much about any newer ANSI standards for SQL.
-ec |
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Frost
Starting Member
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2005 : 22:15:54
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Thanks for the reply eyechart aka - ec -  So as I progress onward in my book learning PHP 5, where ever it has shown MySQL " scripts" or such, then I should be safe having my MS SQL2000 server running and just referrencing it? As posted before I can now connect to Apache 2.0, PHP 5, and wonder of wonders ... MS SQL Server. YEA!! So, yes Virgina, there IS a Santa Clause ! and PHP 5 has come of age to be able to configure in Microsoft SQL Server.
On a side note, I downloaded the MSSQLEXPRESS file (big bugger!) and have tried to install it, but keep getting an erro 1638 and it says that another instance of it is already installed. I cannot find it in my Add/Remove Programs section in Control Panel, and I had removed the Express Beta earlier in favor of this EXPRESS CTP (Community Technology Preview) Would I have to exit Norton AV, and shut down the exisiting MS SQL2000 Server Developement version? Or, could there be a spot in the registry that need to be set as a 0 instead of as a 1?
David... and your "pointer is???" sorry couldn't resist!!
Vernon
"Never argue with an idiot..they will only bring you down to their level and beat you with years of experience" |
Edited by - Frost on 05/16/2005 23:12:52 |
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chmav
Starting Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2005 : 16:05:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Frost
Thanks for the reply eyechart aka - ec - So as I progress onward in my book learning PHP 5, where ever it has shown MySQL " scripts" or such, then I should be safe having my MS SQL2000 server running and just referrencing it? As posted before I can now connect to Apache 2.0, PHP 5, and wonder of wonders ... MS SQL Server. YEA!! So, yes Virgina, there IS a Santa Clause ! and PHP 5 has come of age to be able to configure in Microsoft SQL Server.
On a side note, I downloaded the MSSQLEXPRESS file (big bugger!) and have tried to install it, but keep getting an erro 1638 and it says that another instance of it is already installed. I cannot find it in my Add/Remove Programs section in Control Panel, and I had removed the Express Beta earlier in favor of this EXPRESS CTP (Community Technology Preview) Would I have to exit Norton AV, and shut down the exisiting MS SQL2000 Server Developement version? Or, could there be a spot in the registry that need to be set as a 0 instead of as a 1?
David... and your "pointer is???" sorry couldn't resist!!
Vernon
"Never argue with an idiot..they will only bring you down to their level and beat you with years of experience"
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chmav
Starting Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2005 : 16:07:50
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quote:
On a side note, I downloaded the MSSQLEXPRESS file (big bugger!) and have tried to install it, but keep getting an erro 1638 and it says that another instance of it is already installed. I cannot find it in my Add/Remove Programs section in Control Panel, and I had removed the Express Beta earlier in favor of this EXPRESS CTP (Community Technology Preview) Would I have to exit Norton AV, and shut down the exisiting MS SQL2000 Server Developement version? Or, could there be a spot in the registry that need to be set as a 0 instead of as a 1?
I've the same problem. Have you found an answer?
By
Christoph |
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Frost
Starting Member
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 05/17/2005 : 19:14:32
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I wish I had found a solution!!But at the moment, no. I once had, in my Add/Remove portion : Microsoft SQL Server 2005 Express Edition Beta2 (SQLEXPRESS) and it was 441.00 MB big.. so I uninstalled it and "tried" to install the newer MS SQL Server Express and always end up with a major error. If I send someone the log file, would it do any good?
Vernon
"Never argue with an idiot..they will only bring you down to their level and beat you with years of experience" |
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chmav
Starting Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2005 : 02:16:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Frost
I wish I had found a solution!!But at the moment, no. I once had, in my Add/Remove portion : Microsoft SQL Server 2005 Express Edition Beta2 (SQLEXPRESS) and it was 441.00 MB big.. so I uninstalled it and "tried" to install the newer MS SQL Server Express and always end up with a major error. If I send someone the log file, would it do any good?
That's exactly what I done. :-( |
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Frost
Starting Member
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 05/20/2005 : 23:37:08
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Have to share I was at the webiste of a local television station the other day, and did a simple search for "Fenn Valley" This was right after that Supreme Court decision on allowing shipping of wine interestate, and ruled that banning wine shipments was a violation of the Constitution Commerce Clause and provided a distinct disadvantage to smaller wineries and wine shops. Well, I got back a MySQL error saying "A Database Error Has Occured. You have an error in you SQL syntax; check the manual that corresponds to your MySQL server version for the right syntax to use near 'Fenn Valley"%" OR byline like "%"Fenn Valley"%" OR headline like"..... then it ends. Just seemed odd when all I was doing was a simple serach and a simple search put the database to a halt.
BTW Star Wars 3 was excellent!! Anyone ever use that SQL Server 2000 Developer editon in the 64 bit flavor yet?
Cheers!
Vernon
"Never argue with an idiot..they will only bring you down to their level and beat you with years of experience" |
Edited by - Frost on 05/25/2005 23:48:20 |
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Frost
Starting Member
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 06/03/2005 : 20:29:24
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None of the SQl Server series or SQL Desktop would ever work with a Linux/Apache server I take it? Now that would be something to see! Grab the cat and run to the hills, Martha, Microsoft is writing Linux coded appications!! LOL
Vernon
"Never argue with an idiot..they will only bring you down to their level and beat you with years of experience" |
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rohar
Starting Member
4 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2005 : 15:51:31
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quote:
Originally posted by eyechart
Terraserver is not an OLTP environment. It is a large datawarehouse. SQL Server is a great choice for datawarehousing, especially the 64bit version.
My issue with SQL Server is due to the recovery model that microsoft has chosen to use. In a nutshell, you can lose data up to the interval of your transaction log backups. This really comes into play in a large transactional environment - which an ERP system like SAP is a good example. Even with backing up every 5 minutes you would still be at risk. This is especially bad for an ERP environment because everything is so closely integrated with many different modules all referencing the same base tables.
-ec
Agreed, on terraserver, however, MS SQL does extremely well in large transactional environments (including recovery). I'm currently the Data Architect on a SQL OLTP database about half a ter in size handling over 100 million web facing batch requests per day. Our primary stored procedure runs about 1000 times per second and is over 2500 lines long. We have a policy of virtually 0 scheduled downtime. As you can immagine, we tend to face some unscheduled downtime on such a system.
We have yet to see any issues with recovery. |
Edited by - rohar on 06/05/2005 15:52:43 |
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eyechart
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge
USA
3575 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2005 : 16:11:09
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quote:
Originally posted by rohar
Agreed, on terraserver, however, MS SQL does extremely well in large transactional environments (including recovery). I'm currently the Data Architect on a SQL OLTP database about half a ter in size handling over 100 million web facing batch requests per day. Our primary stored procedure runs about 1000 times per second and is over 2500 lines long. We have a policy of virtually 0 scheduled downtime. As you can immagine, we tend to face some unscheduled downtime on such a system.
We have yet to see any issues with recovery.
Try this: Corrupt your LDF file (use your favorite hex editor) and then attempt a backup of it. Now tell me you haven't potentially lost data.
You have a sproc that is 2500 lines and you run it 1000 times a second? I seriously doubt this btw.
what is the website?
-ec
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rohar
Starting Member
4 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2005 : 16:45:18
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quote:
Originally posted by eyechart
quote:
Originally posted by rohar
Agreed, on terraserver, however, MS SQL does extremely well in large transactional environments (including recovery). I'm currently the Data Architect on a SQL OLTP database about half a ter in size handling over 100 million web facing batch requests per day. Our primary stored procedure runs about 1000 times per second and is over 2500 lines long. We have a policy of virtually 0 scheduled downtime. As you can immagine, we tend to face some unscheduled downtime on such a system.
We have yet to see any issues with recovery.
Try this: Corrupt your LDF file (use your favorite hex editor) and then attempt a backup of it. Now tell me you haven't potentially lost data.
You have a sproc that is 2500 lines and you run it 1000 times a second? I seriously doubt this btw.
what is the website?
-ec
I didn't say recovery could not be an issue, any system can be sabatoged if you have appropriate permissions. I said we havn't had an issue. The only reason I bring this up is that we're definately taking MSSQL to the extreme, and issues of speed were discussed in this thread.
I just did a line count check, we're currently at 2962. 1000/second is a bit of a conservative average. I've seen it peak at over 4000/second.
Saddly, about 1500 of those lines are a massive if/then statement handling some logging logic, this could have been reduced dramatically if partitioned views performed well, but in testing, they didn't.
As you can immagine, I'm under some contractural constraints as to disclosing where exactly I work. To add some credibility to my statements of scale, we're in internet advertising. You can immagine the volume :)
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Edited by - rohar on 06/05/2005 16:47:26 |
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eyechart
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge
USA
3575 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2005 : 21:51:37
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I didn't say recovery could not be an issue, any system can be sabatoged if you have appropriate permissions.
I'm not really talking sabotage either. I am really talking about a corruption issue. Hex edition your LDF is the quickest way to see the effects of data corruption on your logfile. My complaint with SQL Server is that it doesn't handle this type of issue as well as DB2 or Oracle.
quote:
I just did a line count check, we're currently at 2962. 1000/second is a bit of a conservative average. I've seen it peak at over 4000/second.
What kind of hardware are you running on?
quote:
As you can immagine, I'm under some contractural constraints as to disclosing where exactly I work. To add some credibility to my statements of scale, we're in internet advertising. You can immagine the volume :)
ahh, so then you are the source of all this SPAM! 
-ec
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rohar
Starting Member
4 Posts |
Posted - 06/05/2005 : 22:50:53
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quote:
My complaint with SQL Server is that it doesn't handle this type of issue as well as DB2 or Oracle.
I would have to concur, however, there are any number of methods of assuring corruption is extremely unlikely through both physical implimentation and of course reducing io as a whole. We also employ a fairly extensive logging system exported to csv in fairly rapid order. Even if we did loose the primary database AND all the backups, it could be put back together again from data in our BI environment and then played back from our logging system within an hour.
Besides, we run our current infrastructure with 3 physical DBAs and 1 architect (yours truely). I doubt similar things could be done with this headcount on either oracle or DB/2 :)
quote:
What kind of hardware are you running on?
As with any environment, we've got a mix of stuff, our primary dbms system is a hot/cold cluster of HP itanium boxes. Currently we're running on 16 procs, but an upgrade is probably in the near future. Storage is via EMC san with a lot of network help from Cisco and F5.
ahh, so then you are the source of all this SPAM!
Spam is good from a can with eggs, not so good for a profession
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Edited by - rohar on 06/06/2005 00:02:41 |
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Frost
Starting Member
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 06/22/2005 : 23:13:34
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When I lived in Seattle I saw some fairly extensive logging systems. Great care was exercised to prevent severe erosion of the surrounding stuctures. Most logging was in blocks, but then there was some site specific pruning as well.
As far as the hot/cold.. sounds like an issue in the 50's something women.
Vernon
"Never argue with an idiot..they will only bring you down to their level and beat you with years of experience" |
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khennessy86
Starting Member
5 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2006 : 08:40:28
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say for the likes of ebay or amazon , would mysql be able to compete with the likes of oracle9i and ms sql server
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MySQL not as good as MS SQL?
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