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hog
Constraint Violating Yak Guru
284 Posts |
 Posted - 2005-06-04 : 06:09:21
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| I fully understand that this forum like any other is information given as good will gesture to aid others and no one here is to expect responses from threads posted. When I first came to this forum my advice from members was to read books, read this site and ask questions, which is what I do.I am very new to T-SQL, I have no interaction with our corporate system other than using T-SQL to query data for user reports. I have no control on how the data is written to the tables I query.Since being a member of this forum I have learned a huge amount for which I am truly grateful.What I don't understand is the reason behind members who reply to posts with sarcastic comments at someones attempt to solve a problem who are using the only knowledge they have but who wish to learn better ways.Even more so I do not understand why when a question is then directed to these members to ask "well if this is such an awfull way to do it and you know better please show me so I can learn.", they go silent?In my line of work I also train users etc and when I see someone doing something in an ineficient way, or they do not understand something I do my best to teach them the correct way. I do not think as I know more than them it give me the right to look down my nose and make fun of them.I know system developers who are up with the gods who can write amazing corporate systems who look at the graphic programs I have written and they say "how the hell did you do that?" but this does not make me better than them.I mean no offence to ANY member here, all I want to say is I know I am very low down in skills when it comes to T-SQL compared to many of you, but I wish to learn and improve those skills. But having negative comments thrown back will only drive people away from the forum and it would eventually become an elite group patting themselves on their backs at how brainy they all are. My employer is paying for me to go on a 5 day course on T-SQL as they realise the benefits of my learning it. I am reading a teach yourself book and am trying to learn as much as I can.Bottom line is folks we all had to start at the beginning. Something that may seem so obviously simple to you can and does seem obviuosly so hard to new comers.Last words......This thread is NOT and attack on any one, just a plea for fair play. |
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spirit1
Cybernetic Yak Master
11752 Posts |
Posted - 2005-06-04 : 06:33:13
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sarcastic comments, huh??  well look at it from our point of view. basically we answer about 20 different types of questions in 80% of the cases.and every single of these questions is covered in the articles section.there's also a FAQ that covers preety much what you should do.so people who ask those types of questions give the impression of being lazy and want us to do their work.and there are a lot of example like this:Q: i have this and doing it in this way. it's not working. why?A: there's a better way to do it. like this.... we give an example.Q: i don't want a better way i just want to know why my way doesn't work.there're no more replies because at least i think: Oh come on.... why even bother...so in order to keep it interesting (at least to me) we throw in some humor and sarcasm.so it's not to put down anyone it's just to keep enthusiasm...i talk in plural because this is a community. of course i can only talk in my name, but i don't think i'm way off...but you opened a good point for debate... i'd like to hear from others too...and hog can you give an example which solution isn't covered in the articles section that we didn't at least try to solve? everything is usually solveable but at the same time we get waaaay to little info to do anything constructive.and i must say that this is one of the more active forums around that acctually provide fast and in 90% of the cases usefull help...and yeah ... no offense taken Go with the flow & have fun! Else fight the flow  |
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hog
Constraint Violating Yak Guru
284 Posts |
Posted - 2005-06-04 : 06:52:22
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| http://sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=50653 |
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spirit1
Cybernetic Yak Master
11752 Posts |
Posted - 2005-06-04 : 07:02:29
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| seems to me you had the thing figured out by yourself... good for you. so where's your problem?brett told you to use temp tables, you used them, you got it done...so what else did you expect here? if you wanted to make it more efficient (seems ok to me, BTW) you should've provided DDL, DML and desired results. max 20 rows of data. that way we could do something constructive.but just giving the sql and asking is there a better way to do it.... i really don't know what to say here...Go with the flow & have fun! Else fight the flow |
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hog
Constraint Violating Yak Guru
284 Posts |
Posted - 2005-06-04 : 07:04:38
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| And fair comment by you regarding the articles. I had not seen these! I made the mistake of jumping into the forums section, looked for the forum I thought most useful and away I went. I have just clicked on the 'write article' at the top of the page and found the articles section. Stupid I may be, but as I would not have enough knowledge to write an article, I wouldn't bother clicking on that link. I do not see a link called 'articles' though which may have drawn my attention.Needless to say, I did not start this thread to get flamed, that was not my intention...just in case if you know what I mean. |
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hog
Constraint Violating Yak Guru
284 Posts |
Posted - 2005-06-04 : 07:07:12
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| The comment "Alos dynamic sql again huh....how many bullets are in the chamber?" promted me to ask for an explanation on what this meant that is all.The way I eventually figured it out is the same as the fisrt post that prompted to comment, so I figured that the way I had figured it out was wrong that is all? |
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spirit1
Cybernetic Yak Master
11752 Posts |
Posted - 2005-06-04 : 07:28:01
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| what i believe he meant was: dynamic sql is usually "frowned upon" (i believe that's the proper british term )on the main page of the site on the left side there are topics that have articles.below that is atext box that has Article search written above it. easily missed stuff, no? <- feel the sarcasmif it was that bad someone would've said something, believe me...noone's flaming you.Go with the flow & have fun! Else fight the flow |
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madhivanan
Premature Yak Congratulator
22864 Posts |
Posted - 2005-06-04 : 07:33:28
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| Good Points spirit1hog, it is general advice to ask questions by giving enough information so that other members can clearly understand the problem and give solution. If the question is not clear, it is not possible to give solution. If the query doesnot give the expected result, then you need to give1 table structure2 Actual query you used3 Sample data4 Expected result I think it would be nice if you posted this topic at Yak Koral section This is one of the finest SQL Forums and enjoy your stay hereMadhivananFailing to plan is Planning to fail |
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hog
Constraint Violating Yak Guru
284 Posts |
Posted - 2005-06-04 : 07:35:24
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| LOL OK I get the joke.....but...Both me and my wife are looking at the main page and all we see are the list of forums, there is no topic list on the left or search box?Which probably explains why I can't......see them :)Also not for want of a brutal attack on my already shatterd ego... Dynamic SQL? I thought the code in my proc meant as I was using a proc this meant I was not using dynamic sql? if I dare ask, which bit of that proc is considered dynamic? |
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hog
Constraint Violating Yak Guru
284 Posts |
Posted - 2005-06-04 : 07:37:32
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| OK flame away! I just realised we are looking at the All forums pages...not the home page, a page I have never visited until now!So yes...............I AM A PRATT! |
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nr
SQLTeam MVY
12543 Posts |
Posted - 2005-06-04 : 08:45:51
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| >> I just realised we are looking at the All forums pages...not the home page, a page I have never visited until now!Happens to me a lot. Usually followed the following day by "where on earth has that page gone".Don't be put off by sarcasm - just argue with people and you'll so learn enough to be sarcastic yourself.As to not getting a response could be that the poster hasn't looked at the post again.I'll tend to look at posts that have not had a respone and ones that I've posted on - but if those I've posted on get a lot of responses I probably won't bother reading it unless I've a lot of free time.Remember no one gets paid here (apart from Graz but since he bought his tropical island he's not around much) so don't be surprised if people post for a bit then disappear for a while.==========================================Cursors are useful if you don't know sql.DTS can be used in a similar way.Beer is not cold and it isn't fizzy. |
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hog
Constraint Violating Yak Guru
284 Posts |
Posted - 2005-06-04 : 12:21:04
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| Thanks dude :)I do feel a complete dufus tho as what I did was searched the webs for SQL Server forums which directed me to the All Forums page which I book marked. I therefore never went to the home page.Now that I see the topics section I can understand why members would get miffed with the same ole questions!Sorry folks, but hey I learned something new today, well two things.1. There is a VERY useful topics section.2. There is an Alter Proc statement! I have been repeadly deleting my proc and using the Create proc statement during development......der!!Thanks again for feedback...Hog |
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rockmoose
SQL Natt Alfen
3279 Posts |
Posted - 2005-06-04 : 13:02:20
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quote:
Originally posted by hog
OK flame away! I just realised we are looking at the All forums pages...not the home page, a page I have never visited until now!
Happened to me too...quote:
Originally posted by hogBut having negative comments thrown back will only drive people away from the forum and it would eventually become an elite group patting themselves on their backs at how brainy they all are.
I think everyone gets the same treatment.Posts are answered quite objectively and accurately.It's also true that many posters add some spicelike jokes,sarcasm,personal comments etc. to make theexperience of using this forum even more enjoyable.The more one learns about a subject the easier it isto discern between good advice, bad advice, sarcasm, humor or negative comments.I commend You on your efforts to learn T-SQL.I also recommend that You obtain an understanding of database design and normalization.rockmoose |
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Seventhnight
Master Smack Fu Yak Hacker
2878 Posts |
Posted - 2005-06-04 : 13:09:56
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and as always, before asking a question do these things first:1) completely define your problem to yourself. Make sure that you have all of the variables in your mind so that you can clearly and efficiently explain it on the forum.2) atleast attempt to solve your own problem, and include that attempt in the postBeyond that.... have patience with us, and forgive our entertainment at other's expenseWe always enjoy a good puzzle...Corey Secret Service Agent: Mr. President, you're urinating on me.President Lyndon Johnson: I know I am. It's my prerogative. |
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nr
SQLTeam MVY
12543 Posts |
Posted - 2005-06-04 : 17:17:20
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| 2. There is an Alter Proc statement! I have been repeadly deleting my proc and using the Create proc statement during development......der!!I always use the drop/create.It updates the crdate on the object so you can tell the last time you changed it.==========================================Cursors are useful if you don't know sql.DTS can be used in a similar way.Beer is not cold and it isn't fizzy. |
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Merkin
Funky Drop Bear Fearing SQL Dude!
4970 Posts |
Posted - 2005-06-04 : 21:36:18
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quote:
But having negative comments thrown back will only drive people away from the forum and it would eventually become an elite group patting themselves on their backs at how brainy they all are.
I've seen this argument here about once a year for the past 5 years. It doesn't get any less insulting with each time I read it, thankfully it hasn't proven to be right in 5 years either.Consider the other side of this, someone asks a really vague question, you could fob them off with a "Read BOL" but you decide to be helpful. So you spend 10 minutes writing some code and explaination to demonstrate a technique and how it could work for them (you have to demonstrate because you don't have enough information to taylor it exactly). They come back 5 minutes later, obviously having not even tried your code, and say "Oh, when I said X, I actually meant Y, give me the proper code". At the point, you have a few options... one is just going "screw em" and ignoring it, or depending on your mood, a snipy comment can help relieve the desire to hop on the next plane and stab someone in the eye. Bitter ? Me ? No, I love this place, it's why I stay around. You just develop a low tolerance for people who won't help themselves. The common questions here get turned into articles, so it's annoying being expected to write a complete rundown of Dynamic SQL when you've already written it and it's only search away. Also as Nigel mentioned, you might not be around when people come back to clarify the question. If this all adds up to antisocial behaviour that drives people away, then those people need a thicker skin. You got to give a little to get a little.Again, no offence intended, just the view from the other side.DamianIta erat quando hic adveni. |
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Kristen
Test
22859 Posts |
Posted - 2005-06-05 : 02:52:33
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| Its always nice when people come back to say thank you.Its never happened to me though.Nah, only kidding (thought I'd just squeeze that in before Nanny State outlaws it ...) but it is almost as rare as Hens Teeth.Kristen |
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kyelzbub
Starting Member
4 Posts |
Posted - 2005-06-05 : 03:19:34
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I am new here, but I saw this post right off and found it quite interesting. These are things that I have observed in my forum dabblings.1. I am surprised at how little thanks is given. I am not a helper in these forums, I am an asker. I am new to a lot of this and have a lot of questions. I am always sure to thank people for the help they give, and to those of you that don't, maybe this is a small example of how those that do know, get frustrated and maybe a bit edgy with us askers. It just like tipping your bartender, thank those that take the time to actually put forth the effort to try to help you with "your" problem.2. I believe that a lot of these so called sarcastic, nasty comments are taken out of context. I have found that forums are no different than email, and how many times has your well intended, joking, banter been taken as you being an ass, because without the aid of body language and vocal inflection, you were misinterpreted.3. Even if someone in here is giving you a ration, realize that it may stem from something you are saying. I am here asking questions because I know very little about SQL. I will probably say stupid things trying to find these answers. Well, someone is bound to get aggrivated by this and say something reflecting this. I've been in enough forums to know that until you can hold your own, you will taunted. Its typical, just like hazing or initiation. If anyone expects to come to a forum and not get a little lip service, they are kidding themselves or live under a rock. 4. Yes, there are some that go a bit overboard, but hey, to all the know-nothings and know-a-littles out there (me included) relax. You are here to get answers from those that know. These people know, but they are not professors or licensed teachers. It is one thing to know, and another to teach. Those that give answers are doing the best they can with your questions and their knowledge. You might have to put forth some effort to decipher what they are saying into a way that you can understand it, but you will be able to do it. And if you get a little crap in the process, maybe you did something to deserve it. Maybe you didn't, but remember you are the one that needs answers from them, so take it easy and don't get so offended so easy. |
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Kristen
Test
22859 Posts |
Posted - 2005-06-05 : 04:21:29
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| Furhter thought: as a busy blighter, if people append "** SOLVED **" or "** STILL STUCK **" to their titles it would help me home in on things where I might be able to help, and avoid time on ones where I'm not needed.Kristen |
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derrickleggett
Pointy Haired Yak DBA
4184 Posts |
Posted - 2005-06-05 : 12:40:58
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Kyelzbum, what's up with the name? Makes an interesting name if you just replace the k with a "b". I've taken a little break from the forums. I tried to cut my finger off and have been drugged up for the last few days. lol I do want to just throw in a couple thoughts here though.1. I participate in these forums because I think they are fun. That might seem really odd to some people, but I think a lot of the people on here stick around because they really enjoy it. Sometimes, throwing in a sarcastic comment or joke is part of the fun. I would hope people don't take things too personal on forums. If you do, well then.......you're a dork!!!! You probably also meet people online, then get upset when they turn out to be an 800 pound man, dressed as a woman, married to your cousin, and dating your sister. 2. I don't mind people asking "stupid questions". I ask them sometimes. I also give stupid answers sometimes. Thankfully, one of the other SQLTeam masters usually  me before someone runs off and blows up the world using my code. If you ask stupid questions or give stupid questions REPEATEDLY though without EVER redeeming yourself with something worthwhile or requiring a little thought, then you are STUPID and should be treated that way. Many times, us doing our jobs correctly affects other lives. It affects their well-being, and could even affect their lives given the right type of business. If you can't think for yourself, you should find another job. The McDonalds on Main Street in Kansas City, Missouri is always hiring if you need a job. I tell the guys who continually beg for money without ever trying to get a job the same thing, so just take it in stride. /rant3. Be open to learn and share your knowledge with other people. I've given some advice on here that people have contested. I usually run tests when this happens, just because I'm a grouchy, mean DBA who hates being wrong. Sometimes though, I have been wrong and learned in the process. Before I ask questions though, I ALWAYS try to find an answer first. Part of being open to learn should be learning how to find information and answers. Use tools like Books Online, Google, SQLTeam search, etc. Try things out in Query Analyzer. READ!!!! If you can't figure it out, or you need help, then ask us and we will be thrilled to get yet another post on our post-o-meter.Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Don't forget the important stuff when you post here. [s n i p e d] without spaces gives you [y a k ] without spaces give you the almighty Graz.....I mean YAK!!!!  And, that's probably the best advice I've given in weeks.MeanOldDBAderrickleggett@hotmail.comWhen life gives you a lemon, fire the DBA. |
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hog
Constraint Violating Yak Guru
284 Posts |
Posted - 2005-06-05 : 13:50:07
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| Well I started a good topic here!I have learned from my error that I was not looking at the home page so NEVER say the topic list.I do say thanks when someone gives me help that solved my problem.I have many times on this and other forums found that I have spent ages banging my head against a wall trying to figure it out with any joy, I post the question then bielzibub kick me in the arse and give me a reasonable solution which I then post back for adavice.As I am new to T-SQL I am only too aware I may be doing it totally wrong and on at least two of my posts I have been told that yes in fact I am, but then someone else comes along after and say no actually you are doing it right!My position is such that I create the views/procs to be used in our corporate system enquiry system. I have to send these to the DBAs who then release it to the users. I am only too aware that if I send them crap they will send it back to me telling me what I can do with it. So as it is just me all on my own I try to get advice from gurus who can enlighten me.My post started out by saying I know advice given is in good will and by no means to be expected.I also agree that when someone supplies the answer a word of gratitude won't go amis.From this post alone I have learned a hell of a lot.Cheers! |
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No offence intended to any one here!