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jen
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

Sweden
4110 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2006 :  20:31:17  Show Profile  Send jen a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
i noticed that homework questions are now less obviously asked

i can't stop thinking that those teachers who gave them assignments expect them to solve it using their own effort no matter if it's not correct, as long as they learn something

so if they post a question in forums like this for those simple select statements, then submit and gets an A+, they usually come back to forums for more right?

like this one guy, he even informed us that it was his finals! have we been feeding him his answers since day 1? will he finish on top of his class because of sql forums?

anyways... there is no clause in membership that you have to be a professional eh?

just wondering what others are thinking when they answer homework posts , I for one feel a wee bit guilty, but I'm an addict to solving issues

--------------------
keeping it simple...

jhermiz
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

USA
3564 Posts

Posted - 03/03/2006 :  22:06:41  Show Profile  Visit jhermiz's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I honestly dont care.
If someone asks a question and I can answer it Ill answer it.
I may be giving them an answer, but they are only hurting themselves.
The people that want to learn and what to know more, will try their best. Those are the
people who actually want to work as programmers / dba's, they want into the field so generally they take the
answer and learn from it. So I dont mind helping them. The ones who want a quick answer generally mean they
will not be going into the field, they just want to pass the class and become an interface designer. So If
I give them an answer it doesn't bug me so much, it only affects them during final exam time. Do I care? No
Do they care? Prolly not. Does it hurt me? Heck no. Does it hurt them? Prolly




Keeping the web experience alive -- http://www.web-impulse.com

RS Blog -- http://weblogs.sqlteam.com/jhermiz
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Kristen
Test

United Kingdom
22403 Posts

Posted - 03/04/2006 :  01:17:13  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't mind answering a specific question.

If its a cut&paste of their teacher's question then I press [NEXT] !

Kristen
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SamC
White Water Yakist

USA
3459 Posts

Posted - 03/04/2006 :  08:20:08  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This thread has inspired me with another use of an integrated peripheral device which every workstation should have: A large wooden mallot, which would bonk the user on the head (to be used when users should think "just a little more" before doing or asking something lame.) [:-)]

Pop-ups with difficult choices would make users really think:
quote:
Open unverified executable? <bonk strengh="really hard">Yes?</bonk> No?

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robvolk
Most Valuable Yak

USA
15635 Posts

Posted - 03/04/2006 :  16:36:07  Show Profile  Visit robvolk's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The 2 things about exam posts that I object to most are:

1. the sheer utter laziness of 99.99% of posted homework/exam/interview questions (yes, they do make the remaining 0.01% look bad)
2. we get waaaaay too many as it is, answering them will only invite more

I freely admit I'm overly grouchy about it and overly influenced by posting the Ask SQL Teams. But I really feel that if we answer some of the (sorry) dumber or obvious test questions we'll end up like the public MS SQL Server newsgroups. Granted, I haven't been there in a while, but after the last time I swore I would find other, more enjoyable, less permanent and depressing ways to kill brain cells.

Perhaps this is snobbery; I'm guilty, but feeling guiltless.

And frankly, after this episode:

http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=61920

I'm really not all that inclined to help out the totally helpless and clueless. They really don't WANT to be helped.

Sam, I've got a better invention: a device that opens Books Online THE SECOND someone thinks of a question about SQL Server. Maybe we can write an IE/Firefox extension that does that whenever they Google "sql server".
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eyechart
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

USA
3575 Posts

Posted - 03/04/2006 :  22:41:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
the admins should do a recovery of that thread and then lock it. Consider it a test of your backup/recovery procedures.



-ec
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Michael Valentine Jones
Yak DBA Kernel (pronounced Colonel)

USA
7020 Posts

Posted - 03/04/2006 :  23:09:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Most of the homework questions seem to be from people who are unwilling to learn, too lazy to learn, or just unable.

I responded to the poster that Jen mentioned, but I did not answer his question. I just took the part of a teacher and pointed out things he did not do right. I noticed that he has not been back since, so I guess he either managed to figure it out, gave up, got his answer elsewhere, or just turned in the wrong answer.

I don’t think it’s a good thing to give them homework/interview answers. The world seems to have plenty of incompetent developers, so there’s no reason to help produce more. If they flunk out, don’t get the job, or get fired, it’s probably a good thing.

I see the same thing at work, where the incompetent get carried by the competent. I don’t mind helping people that can make use of the help, but what is the point of just doing the job of someone who can’t get the job done? If they can’t do the job, get rid of them and get someone who can.

It’s really a pet peeve of mine, because we had some really weak developers who would complain to their managers that there was “something wrong with the database, it’s not working right.” The job they were supposed to do would get dumped on me to “fix the database”. Of course, there was nothing wrong with the database, just the developer. A number of them were let go in a cutback a few of years ago, and frankly, I haven’t noticed any loss in productivity.


Maybe what we should have is a homework/interview question forum. Then, we could all take turns posting outrageous wrong answers. It might be a lot of fun.





CODO ERGO SUM
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TG
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

USA
5932 Posts

Posted - 03/05/2006 :  10:29:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
>>Maybe what we should have is a homework/interview question forum. Then, we could all take turns posting outrageous wrong answers. It might be a lot of fun.

I was (monentarily) tempted to do just that with one of the recent homework questions but decided against it. If the student went to the trouble to verify it (or even think about it) they would/should have realized it was bogus and if not...enjoy the "WTF" grade the teach gave them.

I definately don't like answering homework questions for many of the reasons already stated. But there is one devils advocate point that makes me question it. If professionals can learn from this forum then why can't students. There are professional who "cheat" their way into their positions and get carried through their career by coworkers or quick, online answers. I hate providing answers to people who obviously fit into this category as well. Seems like there are people who think about and learn from what they see and people that don't. I love to see the light go on the former category of people whether they are students or professionals. I guess the problem is that for every student that truely benefits from advice given here there are a hundred others that are just looking for a quick answer to cut and paste into an exam.

Bottom line for me is most of the time I'm not answering homework questions and feeling no guilt about it. But occasionally, when the student appears to have already put thought/effort into the problem I've responded.

Be One with the Optimizer
TG
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Kristen
Test

United Kingdom
22403 Posts

Posted - 03/05/2006 :  10:56:34  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"the admins should do a recovery of that thread and then lock it"

FWIW I pulled what I could from Google's cache, see the message in that thread dated "03/02/2006 : 12:02:16"

"If professionals can learn from this forum then why can't students"

Both categories should provide details of work done so far as well as the problem that has them stumped. Then I'll help ...

I think we should put "ST" somewhere within example code column/variable names. For the lazy folk who cut&paste into their answers Tutors will get used to seeing these over time, discover the source, and then mark accordingly!

I've had an additional thought:

Disclaimer: This answer is provided as an example only and I retain all rights, not limited to copyright. However, I hereby grant you the use of your own interpretation of the ideas and code expressed in this example in your own work, provided it is not a direct copy. I hereby make you aware that my Intellectual Property lawyer is my wife and, as such, will not charge me for her time. Your defensive counsel will cost you a fortune!!!!

Kristen
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mr_mist
Grunnio

United Kingdom
1870 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2006 :  03:49:44  Show Profile  Visit mr_mist's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I don't like people piggy-backing off of others in order to blag their way through life, so if I see a question on here that looks like someone trying to do that I won't answer it.

However, if someone has obviously given something a good go and is suggesting an approach but unable to find the fine technical detail needed, I might help with that.

In general though, it's a fuzzy line. If we don't help the students, should we help the "professional" who is clearly way out of their depth?

-------
Moo. :)
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JimL
SQL Slinging Yak Ranger

USA
1534 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2006 :  11:16:09  Show Profile  Visit JimL's Homepage  Reply with Quote
My position would be dependent on weather or not the individual gave it at least a good try.

Example: #1
I have to do (this) and need to return (that).
I tried (this code) but got back (bad result).

Example #2
(Question from textbook).

Example 1
Would be helped and given not only the answer but why his/her code did not work.

Example 2
Would be sent to BOL or told to "piss up a rope" depending on my stress level.



Jim
Users <> Logic

Edited by - JimL on 03/06/2006 11:16:31
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Michael Valentine Jones
Yak DBA Kernel (pronounced Colonel)

USA
7020 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2006 :  11:55:41  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mr_mist
...In general though, it's a fuzzy line. If we don't help the students, should we help the "professional" who is clearly way out of their depth?...


I think the question in a lot of cases is if we actually can help someone out of their depth. This guy was way out of his depth, and an ungrateful bastard besides:
http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=61920

I try to stay away from the ones where it looks like they don't have the foundation to do what they need to do. It just seems pointless.





CODO ERGO SUM
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Kristen
Test

United Kingdom
22403 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2006 :  12:51:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"and an ungrateful bastard besides"

Come on MVJ, say it like you see it - I know you are holding back!!

Kristen
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jhermiz
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

USA
3564 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2006 :  13:55:13  Show Profile  Visit jhermiz's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I thought when you create a topic you can delete it as long as you are logged in. Why is he asking for his topic to be deleted?...

The best thing now would be to change his LoginID so he is haunted by this thread forever


Keeping the web experience alive -- http://www.web-impulse.com

RS Blog -- http://weblogs.sqlteam.com/jhermiz
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Michael Valentine Jones
Yak DBA Kernel (pronounced Colonel)

USA
7020 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2006 :  14:07:46  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I thought you could only delete a topic if no one else has posted on it. I may be wrong; I've never tried it.

Anyone want to start a test topic?



CODO ERGO SUM
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Kristen
Test

United Kingdom
22403 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2006 :  14:08:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"Why is he asking for his topic to be deleted?..."

Gawd knows, but he first went and deleted every one of his messages in that thread ...

Kristen
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jhermiz
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

USA
3564 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2006 :  14:45:52  Show Profile  Visit jhermiz's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Michael Valentine Jones

I thought you could only delete a topic if no one else has posted on it. I may be wrong; I've never tried it.

Anyone want to start a test topic?



CODO ERGO SUM



Maybe, Jen can you check this topic, see if you can delete it


Keeping the web experience alive -- http://www.web-impulse.com

RS Blog -- http://weblogs.sqlteam.com/jhermiz
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jhermiz
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

USA
3564 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2006 :  14:46:55  Show Profile  Visit jhermiz's Homepage  Reply with Quote
You're right MVJ.
Looks like you cant...hes hit for life!


Keeping the web experience alive -- http://www.web-impulse.com

RS Blog -- http://weblogs.sqlteam.com/jhermiz
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jen
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

Sweden
4110 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2006 :  20:11:14  Show Profile  Send jen a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
yep you can't, once someone already responded...
did a Test way way back when I first joined
So he's haunted for life alright, atleast here at sqlteam

Jim, that's a good category but you can have a subcategory of number 1...
1A : I need to have... tried this... but didn't work... any help
1B : I want this... and that... and this... and that...how do i do it?

1A, i'll offer help and suggestion if i have one
1B, i'll offer suggestions too but refer to BOL for details, if he gets back without trying, then 1 response is enough for me

so the question really is, how do you handle posters like this? Do we categorize as professional aka working or students?

I vote by attitude and willingness to learn and openness to suggestions


--------------------
keeping it simple...
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Michael Valentine Jones
Yak DBA Kernel (pronounced Colonel)

USA
7020 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2006 :  23:43:03  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A lot of people don't do a very good job of explaining their problem, and I don't have a lot of patience for trying to draw out what their actual problem is. I tend to stay away from the topic if it looks like a game of 20 questions.

I think in most cases, if they just sat and thought through their actual requirements in the first place, they would understand how to solve it.

I know a lot of people don't speak English as a first language, but I don't think that's the major problem. Plenty of Americans are just the same; I can understand what they are saying, but they aren't making any sense.



"My query isn’t working. What should I do?"

...So many possible cruel answers, so little time...





CODO ERGO SUM
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mr_mist
Grunnio

United Kingdom
1870 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2006 :  04:04:48  Show Profile  Visit mr_mist's Homepage  Reply with Quote
And whilst there's a ranty thread, people should offer more praise and thanks for their answers. We're clearly not being worshipped enough here.

-------
Moo. :)
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