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khtan
In (Som, Ni, Yak)

Singapore
17661 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2006 :  04:11:20  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just look at the number of members with 1 post. They post the question, got their answer and never come back. Not even a word of appreciation If they do, the posts will be >= 1

----------------------------------
'KH'


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elwoos
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

United Kingdom
2050 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2006 :  04:19:57  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
May be the first question to aks people should be "What have you already tried?"


steve

-----------

Oh, so they have internet on computers now!
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Kristen
Test

United Kingdom
22415 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2006 :  04:57:02  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
OK, I've got my answers set up as macros on F1 to F4 - leaving F5 to F12 for any add-ons you come up with. Here's F1 to F4:

"You're on your own mate, I only answer threads from people who have at least one more post than you do"

"Do NOT say thank you, it wastes my time coming back to a thread where no further posting is necessary"

"This is a boring, frequently asked question; Your only hope is Madhi, who will be along in a minute. Whatever you do don't upset him or you are fresh out of luck and all his mates will turn up to tell you what a complete and utter waste of space you are"

"This is a tricky question. Ask Tara nicely, she trying to get her stats up"

Kristen
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robvolk
Most Valuable Yak

USA
15678 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2006 :  08:20:15  Show Profile  Visit robvolk's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Mmmmm, awesome macros, I think I might steal them.

Anyway, I think we have an opportunity to practice some of the ideas we've discussed here:

http://www.sqlteam.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=62834
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khtan
In (Som, Ni, Yak)

Singapore
17661 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2006 :  08:33:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Kristen, this is mother's pearly gate ! I loike it.


----------------------------------
'KH'


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jen
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

Sweden
4110 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2006 :  10:23:30  Show Profile  Send jen a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
simply delightful Kristen!

ha ha ha

--------------------
keeping it simple...
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Billkamm
Posting Yak Master

USA
124 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2006 :  12:16:21  Show Profile  Send Billkamm an AOL message  Reply with Quote
When I was in college I would never even use Google let alone forums to do my homework because it felt like I was cheating. Now that I'm a professional Google and forums seem like essential tools.

If someone is stuck at a particular point in their assignment is asking the question on forums any different that asking the same question to their peers or professor?

Now if they literally copy/paste the question and say "do this for me" then they should probably be banned from the forums.

One other note about the difference between academic/professional work is that the academic problems you run into are usually easier to figure than some of the stuff you run into in the professional world IMHO.

Edited by - Billkamm on 03/07/2006 12:17:52
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r937
Posting Yak Master

Canada
112 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2006 :  16:35:59  Show Profile  Visit r937's Homepage  Reply with Quote
if PatP shows up here, i'm sure his explanation will be clearer than mine, but in essence, there are two responses to RFH (request for homework) questions, and they basically fall into the same two categories as suggested by JimL above --

Example: #1
I have to do (this) and need to return (that).
I tried (this code) but got back (bad result).

Example #2
(Question from textbook).

Example #1 gets geniune help, not spoon-feeding, but rather coaching

there's nothing nicer than walking someone who is interested in learning through the relevant details and then seeing that the light has gone on when they post back something that shows they understand

Example #2 gets a response with NZDF -- non-zero deviosity factor

PatP can explain this better, and give great examples, but the idea is, you give them a solution which works, but is devious

a real professional will take the answer, run it, find that it works, come back and say thanks, and everybody's happy

a student will take the answer, run it, find that it works, and hand it in -- at which point any competent teacher will immediately ask where the answer came from, and would you please explain how you got it, and of course the lazy student cannot

gee i wish i could come up with a great example to illustrate, but i'm drawing a blank here


rudy
http://r937.com/
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blindman
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

USA
2365 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2006 :  17:13:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If someone has mad an effort to resolve their problem and is stumped or confused, I'll help them whether they are a student or a professional.

If someone obviously couldn't be bothered to open up Books Online, or is way out of their league and wants to get hours of professional programming and coding for free ("The code you give me have syntax error! Please rewrite for me! Very quickly!"), then they don't get my patience no matter what their "professional" standing.
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robvolk
Most Valuable Yak

USA
15678 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2006 :  19:37:24  Show Profile  Visit robvolk's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Joel had a really good take on it too:

http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html

As far as "competent teacher will immediately ask...", well, I'm sad to say I don't think that will happen in a U.S. school or university, unless it's one of the very top ones. Not only are the teachers not competent (shit, half of them don't teach class, they have TA's or grad students do it) but the university will likely have a quota to meet and will insist that they get passed regardless of actual knowledge, even if (and it's a big if) the professor does not agree.

I too would love to help the genuine student, who put some effort into it and simply needs a hint or a gentle push. But like I said earlier, the 0.1% of these are completely drowned out by the rest who just copy and paste exam or job interview questions (and DEMAND answers, urgently, quickly) I seem to be a little more forgiving of lazy professionals (since I'm one myself) but I do give up once I explain myself twice or three times and they are obviously not listening.
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jhermiz
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

USA
3564 Posts

Posted - 03/07/2006 :  19:49:23  Show Profile  Visit jhermiz's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Nice article, a bit lengthy but worth the read. I don't know if I fully agree with him. There are implementations in Java that are not easy as well, sure there may be a "LinkedList" class, but to me thats a good thing. It's probably good to understand and create a pointer based linked list before using the standard class that is available in a java library. But having it there doesn't mean Java is evil. Besides most good programmers create their own LinkedList pointer class, I know at WSU we had to.


Keeping the web experience alive -- http://www.web-impulse.com

RS Blog -- http://weblogs.sqlteam.com/jhermiz
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elwoos
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

United Kingdom
2050 Posts

Posted - 03/08/2006 :  03:56:45  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This reminds me of the argument about using calculators (slide rule/abacus in Kristens case) in a Maths class. If you understand the process, then using a calculator is fine as you are likely to notice errors and resolve them. If you don't understand the process and rely on the calculator completely then when there is a problem you may not even recognise it and even if you do you may have no idea how to resolve it.


steve

-----------

Oh, so they have internet on computers now!
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Kristen
Test

United Kingdom
22415 Posts

Posted - 03/08/2006 :  04:55:35  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"slide rule/abacus in Kristens case"

I am of course equally at home with either ....

... joking apart, when I was working in Japan I used an Abacus because no one ever had a calculator, and for adding up a column of numbers it was quicker (of course I get SQL Server to do that sort of hum-drum stuff now ...)

Mind you, finding an Abacus wasn't always that easy. The Accounts Folk would use a virtual Abacus - their level of familiarity with it was so good they would just move their fingers as-if they were moving beads on an Abacus, and would easily be able to visualise where all the beads were. 'Twas pretty impressive to see an Accounts Clerk run his eye down a column of figures twiddling his fingers and then write down the total!

Sudoku? Pah!

Kristen
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elwoos
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

United Kingdom
2050 Posts

Posted - 03/08/2006 :  05:27:09  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've always been fascinated by the abacus but never used one, to be honest not that much different with a slide rule. When I was in school basic calculators were just becoming cheap enough to be fairly common, though I only ever used them for statistical functions and occasionaly to check work. I suspect it's very different now


steve

-----------

Oh, so they have internet on computers now!
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Kristen
Test

United Kingdom
22415 Posts

Posted - 03/08/2006 :  08:47:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Dad: "Where's your log tables"

Son:"What do you mean?"

Dad:"You can't leave "Root-2" as an answer, you need to work it out"

Son:"But my calculator doesn't have a square root function"

Dad:<THUD!>

(True story!)

Kristen
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elwoos
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

United Kingdom
2050 Posts

Posted - 03/08/2006 :  10:10:00  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
you need to work it out


Work it out!! Youth of today, I dunno, they're supposed to have it permanently etched in their brains, everyone know's it's 3.14...



steve

-----------

Oh, so they have internet on computers now!
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Arnold Fribble
Yak-finder General

United Kingdom
1961 Posts

Posted - 03/08/2006 :  10:42:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:

Dad:"You can't leave "Root-2" as an answer, you need to work it out"



Ab-surd!
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elwoos
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

United Kingdom
2050 Posts

Posted - 03/08/2006 :  11:11:54  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I thought my "joke" was bad!!
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Ledell
SQL NASCAR Parsing Chick

USA
107 Posts

Posted - 03/14/2006 :  15:41:53  Show Profile  Visit Ledell's Homepage  Reply with Quote
While the topic got started with issues re: homework questions, I see that some of you have a hard time with "stupid" questions. As I move out of my comfort zone and into .Net ... I just hope you are all patient with me and my silly quesitons. I'll have a lot of them! Just ask Rob! Plus ... I'll finally be able to break a 100 posts. :D



Speaking of asking for help ... which forum would I go to, to see what's already been posted about creating web pages and such? I am so new to it that I don't even know what questions to ask.



*************************
Got some code from Rob. Can anyone help?
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eyechart
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

USA
3575 Posts

Posted - 03/14/2006 :  16:00:05  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ledell

While the topic got started with issues re: homework questions, I see that some of you have a hard time with "stupid" questions. As I move out of my comfort zone and into .Net ... I just hope you are all patient with me and my silly quesitons. I'll have a lot of them! Just ask Rob! Plus ... I'll finally be able to break a 100 posts. :D



Speaking of asking for help ... which forum would I go to, to see what's already been posted about creating web pages and such? I am so new to it that I don't even know what questions to ask.






I don't think anyone here really has a problem with what you call stupid questions. We were all noobs at some point in time.

I have a tough time with someone not giving you the information needed to properly answer their question. This often occurs when it is a homework question, probably becuase they think they are being sly about things. Or the back and forth that often occurs because the person asking the question has turned off their brain and refuses to think for themselves.

I have no problem helping someone with a homework question. Just identify the question as a homework question first. It makes things so much easier.

As far as noob questions, ask away.


-ec

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