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 Alias yes or no for Performance
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Michael Valentine Jones
Yak DBA Kernel (pronounced Colonel)

USA
7020 Posts

Posted - 04/07/2007 :  05:45:10  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rockmoose
PS. nice quote mvj , could not google it though..


http://www.amazon.com/Quote-Verifier-Said-What-Where/dp/product-description/0312340044




CODO ERGO SUM
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blindman
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

USA
2365 Posts

Posted - 04/09/2007 :  10:51:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MutantNinjaLoungeSinger

For what it's worth, I completely agree with blindman and all of the points he's making.

What a great way to start off your very first sqlteam.com post!

quote:
Originally posted by MutantNinjaLoungeSinger

His viewpoints and practices are much more responsible from a much higher perspective than many developers/DBAs can comprehend.

Wait a moment while I insert you into my "FriendsForLife" table...

OK. I'm back now.

quote:
Originally posted by MutantNinjaLoungeSinger

So, short of writing elaborate documentation before you leave (which well-expressive code would provide anyway), you will get a phone call on your vacation if something goes wrong. That call can be completely avoided by coding in a way that is expressive and self documenting, and discourages looking back-and-forth between what you're aliasing, and what it means.

Hmmm...my code doesn't go wrong, but I'll take your word on this.

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MutantNinjaLoungeSinger
Starting Member

14 Posts

Posted - 04/09/2007 :  11:53:01  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:

Hey, blindman, you got support!!!

I love your sig MNLS , but al(i)as I don't buy into the approach of spelling out every letter.




Thanks. Of course, I don't buy into spelling out every letter either. As long as what you're not spelling out entirely is meaningful beyond your own thought-process. And of course, as I've stated before, if it's your own stuff, and no one else has to worry about it, do whatever you like. If your code/sql script is co-owned by a team, be courteous through clear expression.

quote:

What a great way to start off your very first sqlteam.com post!


Someone had to acknowledge that your theories aren't total crap. I typically don't bother participating in forums, but I had 30 minutes of down time while a stored procedure that was crucial to an application I maintain was being debugged. Ironically, most of the time spent was the DBA trying to decipher his own terse aliases to work on a bug. I'm just glad he wasn't on vacation.

quote:

Sayre’s Law: "In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the stakes at issue"
Wallace S. Sayre



Fair enough, as this might be considered a "religious" debate worthy enough of Sayre's intervention.

But here's another one for you..

"It takes less time to do a thing right than to explain why you did it wrong."
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow


quote:

Wait a moment while I insert you into my "FriendsForLife" table...

OK. I'm back now.


Yay! Officially one record in the table now?? :)


quote:

Hmmm...my code doesn't go wrong, but I'll take your word on this.


heh... I guess even correct code needs to be "modified and upgraded" once in awhile.
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X002548
Not Just a Number

15586 Posts

Posted - 04/09/2007 :  14:43:31  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey Bill, did the blind dude create a 2nd account?

Brett

8-)

Hint: Want your questions answered fast? Follow the direction in this link
http://weblogs.sqlteam.com/brettk/archive/2005/05/25/5276.aspx

Add yourself!
http://www.frappr.com/sqlteam



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Michael Valentine Jones
Yak DBA Kernel (pronounced Colonel)

USA
7020 Posts

Posted - 04/09/2007 :  15:13:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MutantNinjaLoungeSinger
...Fair enough, as this might be considered a "religious" debate worthy enough of Sayre's intervention.

But here's another one for you..

"It takes less time to do a thing right than to explain why you did it wrong."
Henry Wadsworth Longfellow
...

I'm not sure how that applies. In this case, it's what is "right" that is the center of the dispute.





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blindman
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

USA
2365 Posts

Posted - 04/09/2007 :  18:59:11  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by X002548

Hey Bill, did the blind dude create a 2nd account?

Professional jealousy, joisey-buoy?

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MutantNinjaLoungeSinger
Starting Member

14 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2007 :  14:21:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:

I'm not sure how that applies. In this case, it's what is "right" that is the center of the dispute.



That was sort of the point.
In context of applications/sql scripts/sprocs/etc... anything that requires team co-ownership and is prone to change, and (unless you're blindman) breakage, it's important for the implementation to be self-explanatory enough for maintenance. Anything less than that is not the "right" way.

If I have to sit down with someone and explain to them what the code/query is doing because I lacked any sort of expression in writing it, I have not written it in the "right" way that's sensitive to this very common occurence. At this point, I've lost the benefit of team co-ownership, and I might as well fix the bug and any future issues with the procedure on my own rather than allowing someone else to inherit it.

Admittedly, it's a stretch, but not any more of a stretch than comparing preferences/best practices to religion.

quote:

Hey Bill, did the blind dude create a 2nd account?


hehe... interesting assessment. By that logic, everyone else with the opposing viewpoint is also the same person, right? :)



Edited by - MutantNinjaLoungeSinger on 04/10/2007 14:26:25
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Michael Valentine Jones
Yak DBA Kernel (pronounced Colonel)

USA
7020 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2007 :  14:50:21  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MutantNinjaLoungeSinger

quote:

I'm not sure how that applies. In this case, it's what is "right" that is the center of the dispute.



That was sort of the point.
In context of applications/sql scripts/sprocs/etc... anything that requires team co-ownership and is prone to change, and (unless you're blindman) breakage, it's important for the implementation to be self-explanatory enough for maintenance. Anything less than that is not the "right" way.

If I have to sit down with someone and explain to them what the code/query is doing because I lacked any sort of expression in writing it, I have not written it in the "right" way that's sensitive to this very common occurence. At this point, I've lost the benefit of team co-ownership, and I might as well fix the bug and any future issues with the procedure on my own rather than allowing someone else to inherit it.

Admittedly, it's a stretch, but not any more of a stretch than comparing preferences/best practices to religion.


Well, it is a stretch, especially since I did not compare preferences/best practices to religion. The quote I posted from Sayre is not about religion either, but is about intensity of feeling on trivial subjects.

Certainly, what is "right" is in dispute in this case, even if it isn’t in your mind.

Personally, I have no strong opinion on the subject, because I think both approaches actually work and each has both advantages and disadvantages.




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Kristen
Test

United Kingdom
22403 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2007 :  15:04:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"If I have to sit down with someone and explain to them what the code/query is doing because I lacked any sort of expression in writing it, I have not written it in the "right" way that's sensitive to this very common occurence"

That's a good "acid test". I can't remember the last time I had to do that ...

.. sure, I get "I've looked at X and it seems to be doing Y, is there a good reason why its doing that" and I say "Yeah, because of Z" and the developer say "Oh, OK, that makes sense".

But its a useful sanity check that our Naming conventions, Coding style, Peer-training (sure, if we were Big Corp I would be saying "In house training regime" [add your own fist-full of buzz-words!], but as it happens I don't report to anyone else for my annual review ) are working to achieve a pretty-good minimal-downtime code-review scenario. So I reckon our self-documenting code-standards are working OK!

That's quite a lot of hyphenated words I've generated there. I hope I'm not getting grammar-lax!

Kristen
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MutantNinjaLoungeSinger
Starting Member

14 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2007 :  15:10:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:

Well, it is a stretch, especially since I did not compare preferences/best practices to religion. The quote I posted from Sayre is not about religion either, but is about intensity of feeling on trivial subjects.


Sayre was a fairly outspoken critic of how religion affects people's feelings and emotions. I assumed you were comparing this to a religious debate (which to a certain extent, it *could* be compared to one) since you used one of his quotes.

I stand corrected if that wasn't your intention.

Edited by - MutantNinjaLoungeSinger on 04/10/2007 15:11:29
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MutantNinjaLoungeSinger
Starting Member

14 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2007 :  15:13:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:

That's a good "acid test". I can't remember the last time I had to do that ...



Usually if I write something that's not maintainable, I'm accused of being ON acid when I wrote it. So I guess that applies here :)
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Michael Valentine Jones
Yak DBA Kernel (pronounced Colonel)

USA
7020 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2007 :  15:42:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MutantNinjaLoungeSinger

quote:

Well, it is a stretch, especially since I did not compare preferences/best practices to religion. The quote I posted from Sayre is not about religion either, but is about intensity of feeling on trivial subjects.


Sayre was a fairly outspoken critic of how religion affects people's feelings and emotions. I assumed you were comparing this to a religious debate (which to a certain extent, it *could* be compared to one) since you used one of his quotes.

I stand corrected if that wasn't your intention.



Perhaps I shouldn't have edited out the end his quote; he was talking about academic politics.
Sayre’s Law: "In any dispute the intensity of feeling is inversely proportional to the value of the stakes at issue—that is why academic politics are so bitter."

He is also quoted as saying "The politics of the university are so intense because the stakes are so low."

http://www.amazon.com/Quote-Verifier-Said-What-Where/dp/product-description/0312340044





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Edited by - Michael Valentine Jones on 04/10/2007 16:22:07
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SwePeso
Patron Saint of Lost Yaks

Sweden
29910 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2007 :  15:51:31  Show Profile  Visit SwePeso's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Care to move this discussion to the YAK Corral?



Peter Larsson
Helsingborg, Sweden
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Kristen
Test

United Kingdom
22403 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2007 :  16:40:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"if I write something that's not maintainable, I'm accused of being ON acid"

"Man, are you on ACID? That is so ATOMic ..." !!
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khtan
In (Som, Ni, Yak)

Singapore
17430 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2007 :  18:55:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Peso

Care to move this discussion to the YAK Corral?


Peter Larsson
Helsingborg, Sweden


YAK corral ? But these are serious heavy stuff.


KH

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SQLUSA
Starting Member

28 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2007 :  19:46:58  Show Profile  Visit SQLUSA's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Alias does not have anything to do with performance.

Same for schemas in SQL Server 2005.

If you guys/gals think of performance, think INDEXES, think DISK!

Think MEMORY! Think CPU-s.

Think BAD code!

Kalman Toth, Database, DW & BI Architect
SQL Server 2005 Training - http://www.sqlusa.com
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Michael Valentine Jones
Yak DBA Kernel (pronounced Colonel)

USA
7020 Posts

Posted - 04/10/2007 :  23:40:56  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SQLUSA

Alias does not have anything to do with performance.

Same for schemas in SQL Server 2005.

If you guys/gals think of performance, think INDEXES, think DISK!

Think MEMORY! Think CPU-s.

Think BAD code!

Kalman Toth, Database, DW & BI Architect
SQL Server 2005 Training - http://www.sqlusa.com




Thanks for the SPAM.


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blindman
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

USA
2365 Posts

Posted - 04/11/2007 :  09:54:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SQLUSA

Alias does not have anything to do with performance.

Same for schemas in SQL Server 2005.

If you guys/gals think of performance, think INDEXES, think DISK!

Think MEMORY! Think CPU-s.

Think BAD code!

Kalman Toth, Database, DW & BI Architect
SQL Server 2005 Training - http://www.sqlusa.com


I feel enlightened now. How 'bout the rest of you?

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jezemine
Flowing Fount of Yak Knowledge

USA
2884 Posts

Posted - 04/11/2007 :  09:55:56  Show Profile  Visit jezemine's Homepage  Reply with Quote
he's really given me a lot to THINK about!


www.elsasoft.org
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SwePeso
Patron Saint of Lost Yaks

Sweden
29910 Posts

Posted - 04/11/2007 :  09:58:11  Show Profile  Visit SwePeso's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I am really thinking hard, of all the things he mentions, but nothing happens...


Peter Larsson
Helsingborg, Sweden
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