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 Best steps to becoming a DBA.
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davidpardoe
Constraint Violating Yak Guru

United Kingdom
324 Posts

Posted - 09/14/2001 :  10:51:22  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just noticed this in the very first reply...

quote:
A little bit of vbscript wouldn't help either.


I never really thought vbscript was up to much!

(Maybe I should change my signature from The Dabbler to The Annoying B*ST$RD That Spots Typos!)




============
The Dabbler!
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davidpardoe
Constraint Violating Yak Guru

United Kingdom
324 Posts

Posted - 09/14/2001 :  10:52:50  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Plus if we are going to have a beer war then I vote for "Beer on a Stick" over "Fizzy Wee" any day!!!!

============
The Dabbler!
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Merkin
Funky Drop Bear Fearing SQL Dude!

Australia
4970 Posts

Posted - 09/14/2001 :  11:29:41  Show Profile  Visit Merkin's Homepage  Reply with Quote
David

Regarding vbscript, I was actually being serious there (For once ).

You can use it for WSH (windows scripting host) scripts which can be very helpful for admins. Also DTS script tasks, and scheduled script tasks. Sending emails, file operations, all kinds of goodies.



Damian
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nr
SQLTeam MVY

United Kingdom
12543 Posts

Posted - 09/14/2001 :  12:19:39  Show Profile  Visit nr's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Never actually found a use for DTS yet (except for transferring an object manually).
Just think it's a bit cumbersome for what it gives you.
Seen lots of DTS packages that do simple tasks in a long winded way though.

Suspect it will integrate into the .net nightmare though.


==========================================
Cursors are useful if you don't know sql.
You learn little from being right - benefit from being wrong.
Cold fizzy beer is wrong.

Edited by - nr on 09/14/2001 12:21:49
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dtong004
Constraint Violating Yak Guru

USA
281 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2001 :  11:34:58  Show Profile  Visit dtong004's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I don't think it is cheating, man!.

It is another SQL site, which discuss the SQL exam like this site discuss the SQL server. There is no difference.

I think this would be my last response regarding to this topic. I reiterate my oponion:
MCDBA != good DBA,
MCDDBAless != good DBA eighter.

however, MCDBA did worked on at least 100 + questions orginate from Microsoft, which were designed based on real world question.

At least, I would say:

MCDBA = MCDBAless + 100 real world problem solving.

What is 100 problems meaning to a DBA?, one problem can hang around from days to weeks.

I firmly belive those of saying "MCDBA is nonsense" are those who don't or can not pass the exam. A real decent DBA never says that even though he/she is not willing to take the exam.

My another strong oponion is: A good DBA must know at least 2 RDBMS systems, then you can understand the RDBMS deeply. Just MS SQL server, you only think as Microsoft's way.

I think this kind of discusssion is endless--no use.


Daniel





quote:

Daniel

What about MCDBAs who cheat on the exams ?

http://www.leuthard.ch/mcse/029daniel.shtml
http://www.leuthard.ch/mcse/028dan2.shtml

I don't think MS approves of that.



Damian



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Merkin
Funky Drop Bear Fearing SQL Dude!

Australia
4970 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2001 :  18:54:01  Show Profile  Visit Merkin's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Daniel

quote:

It is another SQL site, which discuss the SQL exam like this site discuss the SQL server. There is no difference.


Big difference. That site is for posting verbatim (or close too verbatim) questions. It is cheating when someone tells you the question and the answer before the exam.

When you did your exam, you signed an NDA. This stated that you agreed to not publish "braindumps" of questions from the exam. MS could strip your certification if they saw that (You shouldn't have used your real email address).

quote:


I firmly belive those of saying "MCDBA is nonsense" are those who don't or can not pass the exam. A real decent DBA never says that even though he/she is not willing to take the exam.



HA HA HA HA Sorry, I do not believe that.

Didn't you fail it too ? That's what the site said.

Sorry Daniel. You are just wrong here, stick to arguing in favour of cursors, that is at least funny.




Damian
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dtong004
Constraint Violating Yak Guru

USA
281 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2001 :  19:27:38  Show Profile  Visit dtong004's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I shut me up on this thread as I said in previous posting. Simply no comments.

BTW, How do you know that is me? There are a lot "dtong" around here. I am "004".

Daniel

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nr
SQLTeam MVY

United Kingdom
12543 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2001 :  19:44:10  Show Profile  Visit nr's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Is that a denial?

>> When you did your exam, you signed an NDA.
Maybe he signed as a different dtong (and how do you know Merkin?).

I think we've done cursors - how about views or dts or triggers now?


==========================================
Cursors are useful if you don't know sql.
You learn little from being right - benefit from being wrong.
Cold fizzy beer is wrong.
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JustinBigelow
SQL Gigolo

USA
1157 Posts

Posted - 09/17/2001 :  20:34:52  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Since the topic of braindumps was broached, I want to rant (and nobody can stop me, mwuhahaha )

<rant>
There are two kinds of MCSEs, or DBAs, or CCNAs, etc... Those that know the material either through on the job experience or (hopefully) diligent study. Unlike the chicken/egg debate at least a few people had to take them before the dumps existed. Now the only way they could have passed was exerting effort (either thru experience or study). So now they have passed the exam and earned what should be an acknowledgement of their ability. So what do they do?... They go post all the questions so that every idiot wanna be can pass the exam without any kind of knowledge or experience. Now the market is flooded with mouth breathing troglodytes that wouldnt know a select statement from a hole in the ground. And those of us that do study and make an effort to know what we are talking about get grouped together with the knuckle draggers to be ridiculed and have our effort written off. Let's assume for one moment that if there are no "paper" (insert favorite cert here) then you will make more money or at least have a better chance at good jobs. Why would you provide a brain dump and help some undeserving lazy a-hole get certified so he/she can compete with you for the money/jobs? It makes no sense to me!!!!
</rant>

...calming down...breathing...breathing...

Justin


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mfemenel
Professor Frink

USA
1421 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2001 :  08:42:57  Show Profile  Visit mfemenel's Homepage  Reply with Quote
It is totally ignorant to assume that the people who are "downing" dba's couldn't pass the test. Are you telling me that myself, Volk, Merkin,Justin, or NR couldn't pass the test? What a bunch of crap. Personally, I've passed 70-029 and 70-028(the part of the MCDBA dealing specifically with SQL). Yet, I still think that there are a lot of crappy DBA's out there. I certainly wouldn't argue with the guys mentioned above(ok, maybe Justin, but that'd just be for sport ) if they had a certain approach to a SQL problem without knowing my stuff and trying their solution as well. Let's put it this way. Who would you want to run your server, a guy with no experience and an MCDBA, or a guy who's been using SQL for 8 years and has true "hands on" experience?

The test simply means you can memorize answers to specific situations about SQL, it doesn't make you a good DBA, or even a good SQL user. The knowledge of what SQL can do without the experience, is IMHO actually a scarey thing.Yes, it's a good "toe in the water" if you don't have a lot of SQL experience, but don't assume you know it all, you would be gravely mistaken.

In my opinion, the people who have worked through real life issues and experience with SQL are FAR BETTER DBA's than those who have a piece of paper that say they're supposed to know what they're doing. Microsoft cannot prepare you for every crappy bug and pain the butt thing their server, employees, or your users are going to do to it. It's just not possible. If it were, this site wouldn't exist!


Mike
"A program is a device used to convert data into error messages."
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Doug G
Constraint Violating Yak Guru

USA
330 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2001 :  14:43:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Let's put it this way. Who would you want to run your server, a guy with no experience and an MCDBA, or a guy who's been using SQL for 8 years and has true "hands on" experience?

The value of the certification comes in when the question is:

"Who would you want to run your server, a guy with no experience and an MCDBA, or a guy with no experience without a MCDBA?"



======
Doug G
======
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robvolk
Most Valuable Yak

USA
15676 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2001 :  14:51:14  Show Profile  Visit robvolk's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Sorry Doug, but I would NEVER hire ANYONE as a DBA if they have no work experience, I don't care if he's got 2,000 certifications and is the Pope.

Would you get on a plane if the pilot never flew before?

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nr
SQLTeam MVY

United Kingdom
12543 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2001 :  15:47:04  Show Profile  Visit nr's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Probably the guy without the MCDBA.
At least they would be less dangerous.

"Microsoft have released it so it must work"


==========================================
Cursors are useful if you don't know sql.
You learn little from being right - benefit from being wrong.
Cold fizzy beer is wrong.
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JustinBigelow
SQL Gigolo

USA
1157 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2001 :  16:03:51  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Also we need to keep in mind that any organization of significant size is going to have more than one DBA. If you are only going to have one DBA on hand then of course you wouldnt use a person with no practical experience. However if the needs of the organization were growing then a single (or current # of DBAs) might be stretched too thin. The biz may try and hire a jr DBA due to price rather than a more seasoned person like nr or robvolk who would come at a much higher price. The biz now has a cheaper person that is looking to build their skills while allowing the old pros to use their skills where they are more needed (architecture changes etc...). That was my reasoning for pursuing the MCDBA. I'm trying to split the difference between uninformed accident waiting to happen and somebody with the experience that precludes the need for certs.

my further 2c,
Justin

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mfemenel
Professor Frink

USA
1421 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2001 :  16:34:49  Show Profile  Visit mfemenel's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The problem though is that Rob and NR spend all their time on this site, Rob is "high maintenance" and NR is drunk half the time!(or more) I guess talent has it's compromises too.

Mike
"A program is a device used to convert data into error messages."
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nr
SQLTeam MVY

United Kingdom
12543 Posts

Posted - 09/18/2001 :  16:45:05  Show Profile  Visit nr's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Good point mfemenel. I must do something about that sober half.

Isn't the Munich beer festival about due?

==========================================
Cursors are useful if you don't know sql.
You learn little from being right - benefit from being wrong.
Cold fizzy beer is wrong.

Edited by - nr on 09/18/2001 16:46:46
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Doug G
Constraint Violating Yak Guru

USA
330 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2001 :  00:46:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Sorry Doug, but I would NEVER hire ANYONE as a DBA if they have no work experience, I don't care if he's got 2,000 certifications and is the Pope.

Maybe it's a matter of terminology. Everyone starts out without experience. My point was if you are hiring a SQL entry DBA type whatever you call them person, you'd probably hire one with a certification over one without a certification, other factors being roughly equal.

Maybe there is no such thing as an entry level DBA?


======
Doug G
======
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Andraax
Aged Yak Warrior

Sweden
790 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2001 :  05:02:26  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There are entry level DBA's at least I am living proof of that (and I'm alone at our company). However, I have to agree that the MCDBA exam is probably worth about nothing. I have taken a couple of those Microsoft certification tests (NT server 4, TCP/IP) and I think they were pretty worthless. If I had never seen an NT4 server machine in my life, I could still have aced the test with a little study (and I mean a little).

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dtong004
Constraint Violating Yak Guru

USA
281 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2001 :  10:33:17  Show Profile  Visit dtong004's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Put this way:

Anyone think someone else is stupid, he/she is the stupid.


Daniel


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dtong004
Constraint Violating Yak Guru

USA
281 Posts

Posted - 09/20/2001 :  10:35:51  Show Profile  Visit dtong004's Homepage  Reply with Quote
OK, you past the test, did you get cursor question right?

Daniel


quote:

It is totally ignorant to assume that the people who are "downing" dba's couldn't pass the test. Are you telling me that myself, Volk, Merkin,Justin, or NR couldn't pass the test? What a bunch of crap. Personally, I've passed 70-029 and 70-028(the part of the MCDBA dealing specifically with SQL). Yet, I still think that there are a lot of crappy DBA's out there. I certainly wouldn't argue with the guys mentioned above(ok, maybe Justin, but that'd just be for sport ) if they had a certain approach to a SQL problem without knowing my stuff and trying their solution as well. Let's put it this way. Who would you want to run your server, a guy with no experience and an MCDBA, or a guy who's been using SQL for 8 years and has true "hands on" experience?

The test simply means you can memorize answers to specific situations about SQL, it doesn't make you a good DBA, or even a good SQL user. The knowledge of what SQL can do without the experience, is IMHO actually a scarey thing.Yes, it's a good "toe in the water" if you don't have a lot of SQL experience, but don't assume you know it all, you would be gravely mistaken.

In my opinion, the people who have worked through real life issues and experience with SQL are FAR BETTER DBA's than those who have a piece of paper that say they're supposed to know what they're doing. Microsoft cannot prepare you for every crappy bug and pain the butt thing their server, employees, or your users are going to do to it. It's just not possible. If it were, this site wouldn't exist!


Mike
"A program is a device used to convert data into error messages."



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